Wikipedia:Peer review/Supernatural (season 2)/archive1

Supernatural (season 2)

This peer review discussion has been closed.
I've listed this article for peer review because I was told that the prose needs improving. I think that once the writing style has been improved, the article meets the standards for FA. Thus, I would like help in copy-editing the entire article.

Thanks, Ωphois 14:20, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

Comments from Peregrine Fisher

Well, like S1, it has some passive "ing" words going on. There are a number of "having"s and "being"s that could be worded more directly. Also, a few "becoming"s.

There are too many "was"s.

I'm not a great writer myself, but I think this article has a problem with weak verbs. Here's an article on them: Eliminate Weak Verbs Once & For All. I guess "is", "are", and "were" are (ha! I used "are" and don't know how to get rid of it) the worst.

I searched the page for some of the words I'm mentioning, and there are probably a couple hundred of them. That page I linked to says don't replace them all, but replace most of them. Kind of a hassle, I know.

It would be nice to have something to orient the reader a bit better than "After the car wreck, the Winchesters are taken to a hospital in Memphis." And something that ends it better than "Knowing that they now have to face an army of demons, Sam promises to try and free Dean from his deal." Maybe just "The season opens with..." or something.

The word "season" is used repetitively. Replace some instances with the word "it", and you'll probably need to think of a third word that can be substituted in if you can. Maybe "that year" or something. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 17:12, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

Okay, I'm working on it now. One thing though. One of the intro sentences is currently: "Aspects of episodes also came from thoughts that the writers wanted to convey." This doesn't really fully apply, and the prose could also be improved. Do you have any suggestions for that paragraph? Ωphois 21:45, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

Well, first the correct theme needs to be found for the para, for a good opening sentence. We've got Kripke's feelings on Angels and humans, wanting an Evil Sam and Dean's reaction to him plus demonic possession, wanting a strong female, wanting to keep the number of psychic children ambiguous, and why they killed the werewolf girl. I'm not seeing a strong thread that connects them all. Two are about demons/angels, two are about girls, and then there's the kids. I think, although it's not made really clear in the para, that the kids are related to the strong girl part, so maybe you could split the para. One para on girls, and one on angels and demons. That might work, or it might cause more work because then other things should be merged with them, or they should be merged to. What to do isn't obvious to me, but what I've just outlined might work. I don't know. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 22:07, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

Another thing that works good for me sometimes is to move problematic sentences and paragraphs to the talk page. You don't necessarily need every factoid available, and they're easy to find there. And it solves problems quick. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 22:34, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

True. Good idea. Also, maybe I can move the evil Sam thing to the simple concept paragraph, and make the sentence about the writers' thoughts and beliefs? Kripke's disbelief in angels, Tucker thinking the show needed a strong female, and Gamble's belief that show works best when Sam and Dean are in pain. Ωphois 22:38, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

That sounds like a good organization. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 23:05, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

Does this look better to you?

The thoughts and beliefs of each writer also had an effect on several episodes. Kripke personally does not believe in angels, and feels that God instead works through humans. This translated into the episode "Houses of the Holy"—originally entitled "Touched"—by having an evil man impaled by a pipe in a random accident. He commented, "An incident like that is one in a million, so anytime anyone gets a javelin through their heart in the middle of a car accident, you should suspect God's will..." The character of Ava Wilson in "Hunted"—named after Tucker's best friend from high school—was created to allow for a female character to drive the storyline instead of needing to be rescued. Ava was intended to be a sister-figure for Sam, and this decision made it easier for Tucker, who noted, "She was allowed to be spunkier, more sarcastic, more of her own person, because she wasn't there to charm Sam." For the episode "Heart", Gamble thought it was appropriate for Sam to kill the werewolf Madison, as she feels that the series works best when Sam and Dean are "in a lot of pain". Gamble believed Kripke would not allow this, but he agreed with her decision. Ωphois 23:17, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

Well, the first sentence is better, but the para is still funky. The first half is only about beliefs, not thoughts, as far as I can tell. The second half doesn't seem to have much to do with "thoughts and beliefs", either, it's the girl stuff. If you want to do it the easy way, just move the first half to the talk page (for later), and do an opening sentence something like "Several episodes differed from the shows typical treatment of female characters." It might be "Two episodes" instead of "Several episodes", not sure. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 01:29, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

I could just remove Ava's character stuff to her character section in another article. That way the paragraph focuses on Kripke's angel belief, Tucker's inclusion of a strong woman, and Gamble's "in a lot of pain" thoughts. Maybe a better intro sentence would be "beliefs and philosophies"? Ωphois 01:34, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

I just read that Tucker also wrote aspects of the character to be relateable to herself. How Ava finds herself thrust into the situation, and Tucker sometimes feels "what am I doing here" during series production. This would relate to thoughts, IMO. Ωphois 01:52, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

The strong woman stuff isn't really thoughts and beliefs, other than maybe they believed they needed a female who didn't need to be rescued to mix things up. Unless the ref has stuff that the article doesn't and it's based on a writers feminist beliefs or something.

Basically, every part of a story is based on its writer's thoughts, so saying that doesn't seem to add anything. Kripke's belief in god effecting the story is good, but that's the only belief that I'm seeing. Can you say specifically what other belief effected the story? - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 02:03, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

As you said, not everything needs to be included. The disbelief in angels is mentioned on another page, and I can move the Ava thing to her article. The werewolf thing isn't that important, so maybe I should just remove the paragraph? Ωphois 10:36, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

(redent) That's what I would do. If someone at FAC is desperate to put it back, then fine. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 01:01, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

There are a number of "to be"s. These should be replace with something stronger. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 16:48, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

I went through and replaced/removed a bit. However, the ones remaining I couldn't find something to replace them without making the sentence sound weird. Ωphois 21:58, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

I could also use help with this sentence: "As in the final version of the script, twins with mind-control abilities were the focus of Edlund's original pitch for "Simon Said". However, one was deformed and kept secluded. The deformed twin's ability was more powerful; he later used this advantage to force his twin to think that he is retarded. At the episode's end, the normal twin became so angry at his deformed brother that he ate him."

It seems awkward to me, but I can't think of a better way to word it. Ωphois 01:01, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Twins with mind-control abilities were the focus of Edlund's original pitch for "Simon Said", but various changes were made in the version that aired. In the pitch, one twin was deformed and kept secluded. They were more powerful, and forced the other twin to think he is retarded. The more normal twin became so angry at this, that he ate his brother.

This may not be correct, I don't remember this part of the show. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 01:19, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

It kinda conflicts with the intro sentence. Here is the whole paragraph: "Even after the plotlines were developed, major deviations sometimes occurred in the writing process. As in the final version of the script, twins with mind-control abilities were the focus of Edlund's original pitch for "Simon Said". However, one was deformed and kept secluded. The deformed twin's ability was more powerful; he later used this advantage to force his twin to think that he is retarded. At the episode's end, the normal twin became so angry at his deformed brother that he ate him. The story was eventually changed, and instead focused on questions such as "What do you do with power?".[78] Kripke felt that this fit greatly with the series' storyline, because Sam was uncomfortable with his developing abilities; the writers wanted to explore one of the psychic children—young adults visited by the demon Azazel as infants, gaining powers later in life—who took his ability as a gift.[79] "Folsom Prison Blues" stemmed from Kripke's desire to feature prison ghosts, and the initial plot had FBI Agent Henriksen finally capturing the brothers and sending them to prison. However, this caused a major complication: the writers would have to devise a way for Sam and Dean to escape in the end.[80] Writer John Shiban suggested that the brothers be arrested on purpose in order to work a job, with the prison's head guard being revealed as a family friend."Ωphois 01:36, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

After the plotlines were developed, major deviations sometimes occurred in the writing process. Twins with mind-control abilities were the focus of Edlund's original pitch for the episode "Simon Said", but changes were made in the version that aired. In the pitch one twin was more powerful, and used this to force his brother to perceive him as retarded. At the end of the episode, His brother ate him in retaliation. The story was eventually changed, and instead focused on questions such as "What do you do with power?". ? - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 01:46, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Great. Thanks. Ωphois 01:58, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

How does this sound: "After the plotlines were developed, major deviations sometimes occurred in the writing process. Like in the final version of the script, twins with mind-control abilities were the focus of Edlund's original pitch for the episode "Simon Said". However, the more powerful twin—kept secluded due to deformities—forced his brother to perceive himself as retarded. At the end of the episode, his brother ate him in retaliation." Ωphois 02:01, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

(redent) Sounds good. So twin A made twin B think twin B was retarded? If so, done. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 02:19, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm also trying to reword this sentence: "Another element of folklore that Kripke had always wanted to include was the story of Robert Johnson, as his first attempted screenplay as a writer focused on it." Ωphois 20:45, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Kripke also wanted to include Robert Johnson, whom he had included in his first screenplay. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 21:23, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

How about: "Another element of folklore favored by Kripke was Robert Johnson, who was the focus of his first screenplay as a writer." Ωphois 21:30, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Sounds good, except favored seems a bit vague. Also, Robert Johnson is a real person, isn't he? How is that folklore. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 01:08, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Robert Johnson (musician)#Devil legend. I guess I could say: "Another element of folklore favored by Kripke was the story of Robert Johnson, which was the focus of his first screenplay as a writer."

I feel that it would be repetitive if I used "include" again. "Favored" is the best that I can think of. Ωphois 01:12, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Sounds good. Go with it. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 01:29, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

"The department added in blood coming from underneath him, and also made his fingers twitch and his mouth open and close to create a more life-like appearance." I think the second half is fine, but I find the first part awkward. Ωphois 13:23, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

The department added blood flowing from underneath him? - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 16:19, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, I was considering that. I guess it works fine. Ωphois 16:22, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Finding inspiration in the Buffy the Vampire Slayer episode "Normal Again", in which lead character Buffy Summers hallucinates that she is mental patient who has been imagining the series' storylines,[73] Kripke loved the idea.

I can't think of a way to rewrite this without it sounding more awkward. I don't want to have "Kripke loved the idea" at the beginning, because then it also sounds weird, IMO. Ωphois 08:53, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Comment by Sasata

Here's my suggested prose massage of the paragraph discussed in the aborted FAC. Feel free to use it, use parts of it, or none of it-I won't be offended. Note I've removed some of the short quotes, as to me they don't seem to help in the delivery of the ideas, but rather, make it more difficult and awkward to construct prose around them. Of course, there's a danger of OR when moving from direct quotes to interpreting what they said, but in this case it seems fairly straightforward. Note the quotes I inserted around the words "fell in to place", please remove these if it's not the same phrasing as the source uses. Also, "Because the season alluded to the possibility" is kinda awkward... how does a season allude? I want to put "Because the season's first episode alludes", but haven't seen the show so don't know if that's factually correct. Anyway, hope this helps. Sasata (talk) 05:07, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Other stories were developed from simple concepts. For example, the reformed-vampire episode "Bloodlust" was developed to suggest that all monsters should not be killed indiscriminately. The plot alluded to "racial issues", but not blatantly; rather, as Padalecki noted, they explored it in a "fun way". The episode "The Usual Suspects" emerged from the writers' desire to keep the audience guessing. Cathryn Humphris pitched a story with a ghost serving as a death omen—warning people of future tragedy, rather than trying to kill them, unlike previous ghosts on the series. However, Humphris had trouble developing the script's outline. Kripke noted a part of the episode in which brothers are arrested and have to explain to police what had happened; this scenario ultimately became the framework of the episode, which begins with Sam and Dean being taken into custody. The concept for "Tall Tales" originated as a "he said, he said" episode, in which the brothers would recount conflicting versions of the same storyline. The writers deliberated over the use of five or six monsters in trying to find one appropriate for the episode, but eventually settled on a trickster because it was readily adaptible. Although the writers typically prefer to put their own spin on folklore, they decided in this case to remain faithful to the archetypal trickster mythos. Because the season alluded to the possibility of Sam becoming bad, the writers wanted to portray how an evil Sam would behave, and what Dean's reaction would be. One of the writers' first creative ideas of the season was depicted in the teaser of "Born Under a Bad Sign", in which a blood-covered Sam wakes up not remembering the past week of his life. The plot, which apparently "fell into place" during the writing process, included demonic possession to explain Sam's actions—an event that resulted in the return of the vengeful Meg Masters demon.

Thanks! I'll add it to the article. However, about the Trickster, I think using the quote would be better, because I don't think "adaptable" works. From my understanding of the text, they chose him because his powers could accomplish all the myths in the episode. And about the season alluding to Sam becoming evil... that is one of the story arcs for the season. It is not in just one episode, so I think "season" instead of "first episode" is more appropriate. What do you think about the changes made to the rest of the article? Ωphois 15:49, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Honestly, I think you'll have a much easier ride at FAC if you get someone else (i.e. someone who is not you) to copyedit the article. The benefit of having an extra set of eyes (or more if you can rustle up others) is immense, as they will catch things you have either missed, or have looked at so many times that your brain cannot perceive the errors. While I'm here, I thought I should mention this:

"... forced his brother to perceive himself as retarded" I may just be getting old but I always thought this was a derogatory term that wasn't used in "proper circles"... suggest "mentally deficient" or something else more PC. Good luck on your FAC quest! Sasata (talk) 19:16, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

There is currently a nine-month backlog on the copy edit requests. Do you know any good copy-editors that would be willing to go through the entire article?Ωphois 19:47, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

Maybe try going through the participant list at WP:WikiProject Guild of Copy Editors, and see if any have interests that match this article. You'd probably have better luck trying editors who have most recently added their name to the list. I do know that Airplaneman and ATC recently helped out on a Seinfeld FAC that needed similar copyediting help. Sasata (talk) 20:05, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

On request, I'm having a look at the article again. After reading a few random paragraphs in the middle, I think it flows better than the FAC version. I saw a few places where I might suggest tweaks, but perhaps it's just a matter of stylistic preferences at this point. I'm too lazy to give the whole article line-by-line analysis, but here's some comments about the lead, coming from the perspective of someone who's never seen the show. Hope this helps, and good luck on your next nomination. Sasata (talk) 05:54, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

• airing a total of 22 episodes. would any meaning be lost if the words "a total of" were trimmed?

Done. Ωphois 12:10, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

• It focuses on the protagonists... Subject of "it" unclear, based on the previous sentence it could be "Season 2", or more generally "an American paranormal drama television series"

Done. Ωphois 12:10, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

• wlink psychic

Wikilinked "psychic children" to the character page detailing them. Ωphois 12:10, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

• During their travels they use their father's journal to help them carry on the family business, saving people and hunting supernatural creatures. This way this sentence is constructed leaves me wondering whether its meant to be a list, or whether the family business is saving people and hunting supernatural creatures.

Used mdash. Ωphois 12:10, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

• a joint venture of the WB and UPN. I have no idea what these unlinked acryonyms mean. Also, is it important or relevant enough to put in the lead of this article?

Wikilinked them. The series had previously aired on the WB, so I think it is important enough. Ωphois 12:10, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

• Overall, it averaged Is any meaning lost if the first word is trimmed?

Done. Ωphois 12:10, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

• Overall, it averaged about 3.14 million American viewers Maybe I'm just behind the times, failing to keep current with new linguistic trends... is "average" typically used as a verb like this?

I've seen it this way in other articles. Ωphois 12:10, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

• The season gained many award nominations from whom?

Different award organizations. It's detailed in the reception section. Ωphois 12:10, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

• The season gained many award nominations, and received mixed reviews from critics. Seems to me that it might serve better to employ a contrasting connector like "but" or "although it" rather than the simple connector "and".

Done. Ωphois 12:10, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

• wlink box set

Done. Ωphois 12:10, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

Anyways, thanks for your help. I'll probably put it back up for nomination this week. I'm required to notify previous reviewers when I do, so I'll send you a message when I do. Ωphois 12:13, 13 December 2009 (UTC)