Wikipedia:Peer review/The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints/archive2

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

Previous peer review

This is my second peer review request for this article in two years. I believe it's approaching FA status, and if this PR doesn't turn up any major issues, I think I will list it at WP:FAC. (Eventually.)

The LDS Church is a relatively large American religious denomination, with an interesting and important backstory. As such, it is very notable, and I believe it's in Wikipedia's interests to get it right (as well as other articles with similar importance and public exposure). Also, as a life-long practicing church member myself, this article has personal importance to me as well.

Thanks, Trevdna (talk) 23:45, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

On the whole, this is a strong article; I can see it becoming FA soon. While reading it, I made some small edits to improve some awkward wording.

Infobox and Lead:

• The infobox claims the church is active in 176 nations and territories. This isn't cited, and I didn't catch a citation in the body.

I couldn't locate this in any reliable secondary source, so I've removed it.

• I'm not sure what the church "belonging to Mormonism" means. The linked article has a quote about how the word isn't well defined.

Great point. The Latter-day Saint Movement = Mormonism adherents. That subarticle could use some work, but in this case I think it had meant that Mormonism is the church's theology. In any case, that information is available from the infobox. In any case, I've removed that reference to Mormonism and moved up a reference from elsewhere in the lede about it being by far the largest denomination of the Latter Day Saint movement.

• When you say "Bishops, drawn from the laity", I would either remove that clause or clarify what "laity" means. In other denominations, the "laity" are members who aren't priests or otherwise part of the clergy. In the LDS church, nearly all adult males are priests, which makes me think the laity are (mostly) women and children. This was confusing throughout the article.

The church has a clergy that is not paid and does not receive formal theological training. The term "laity" is understood to mean from the general body of the church's members. I've worked on rewording somewhat, although I'm not sure the new wording is particularly elegant.

History:

• I think this should discuss Smith's miraculous claims (e.g. being visited by Moroni, translating the Golden Plates with the Urim and Thummim), the testimonies of the witnesses, etc. They shouldn't be stated as fact, but they're clearly noteworthy, they explain why the LDS view of Joseph Smith is so different from e.g. the Lutheran view of Martin Luther, and they contextualize the differences between the LDS church and other denominations.
• For the first sentence, is the history "typically" divided this way? I didn't see anything in the source claiming this was a typical approach. Maybe just say "the history can be divided"?

Changed.

• Joseph Smith changing the church's name is cited to the Doctrine and Covenants. Is there a secular secondary source to cite instead?

Changed it based on the best reference I have access to. Also reworded to match my reference.

• The idea of "the New Jerusalem" could use elaboration.
• How was the dedication of the Kirtland Temple "similar to the day of Pentecost"? This needs clarification.
• "The Millenial kingdom" links to the generic page millennium. Should this link to Millennialism instead? Does this have a specific meaning in the context of LDS?

This seems to have been updated.

• The text mentions Brigham Young was "the senior apostle of the Quorum of the Twelve", with no context for what that means.

Reworded slightly. I don't want to spend too much time on this, as it could disrupt the flow of the article, but hopefully the newer wording makes his leadership position a little more clear.

• The Pioneer Era section calls the pioneers "Mormons", but this was never defined in the article. Are the terms "Mormon" and "Latter-day Saint" equivalent?

Updated to explain this in the article lede.

• This section cites "accusations involving polygamy and […] theocratic rule", but the previous paragraph directly said this was a theocracy with plural marriage. Does it make sense to call these allegations?
• The paragraph beginning "After Young's death in 1877" is light on citations, and doesn't explain why relations between the church and the US improved.
• The chronology of the Modern Times section is a bit awkward. After two paragraphs about the 2000s, it's surprising to read about the Great Depression.

Beliefs

• What is the "spirit world"? Is Jesus' visit there analogous to any other Christian beliefs, e.g. the Harrowing of Hell?
• The Cosmology section leaves me with a lot of questions. What happens to people who reject the LDS faith? Annihilation? Hell? Universal salvation? If Adam and Eve's fall is seen positively, do Mormons reject Original Sin? If so, do they mean something different by "substitutionary atonement"? We can "become one with God in the same way that Jesus Christ is one with the Father", but Jesus and the father "are separate beings with bodies of flesh and bone" ? I think another paragraph or two of explanation would help a lot.
• The Prophetic Leadership section should briefly explain how people are chosen to join the Quorum of the Twelve.

Included.

Practices

• The Ordinances section is light on citations.
• Is the LDS Sacrament really "equivalent to" the Eucharist? The LDS church doesn't use wine or believe in transubstantiation, so I imagine many Christians would dispute this equivalence. Maybe "analogous to" is more neutral?

Reworded per this suggestion.

Worship and Meetings

• The first paragraph is light on citations.
• It's still not clear what "church laity" means.

Reworded here.

Culture

• The Political Involvement section exclusively covers the United States. Is the church apolitical everywhere else?

As far as I know, yes. The closest thing to a discussion of this point, is where they specifically disclaim taking sides in global conflicts, which I've added to the article.

Criticism and Controversy

• The controversy around "evidence for a reformed Egyptian language" could use more context, making it clear this directly challenges the origin of the Book of Mormon.

Written.

• This section seems to understate the criticisms of Smith. It's not hard to find people directly calling him a fraud. The Book of Mormon relentlessly mocks his account of the Golden Plates, and was probably the first time many people heard the story.

Added a paragraph, dealing with the topic more directly. Let me know what you think or if it should be worded even more explicitly.

• The reference to Black followers not attaining "the highest level of salvation" is unclear. This should be explained more thoroughly in the Cosmology and Salvation section.
• Some parts of this section sound a bit weasely, like they're hiding context or trying to avoid blame. Two that stand out are "Opposition led to a series of events culminating in the killing of Smith" (instead of "these people killed Smith") and "more than 1 billion dollars collected through tithing has been transferred" (instead of "The church transferred $1 billion")

Reworded these two specific instances. Please feel free to mention any more you may spot.

Ghosts of Europa (talk) 08:44, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Thanks very much for this review! I'll go through these items as I have time, although it probably won't be for a few days at least before I get started, with the holidays coming up. But your review is very much appreciated. Trevdna (talk) 18:23, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Ok, I've added some responses in italics. More as I get time. Trevdna (talk) 23:34, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

On a quick glance, I couldn't see anything on this page or the "criticism" page about the practice of "shunning" former LDS members. It seems this is widely experienced but denied by the church and was the subject of a recent UK Channel 4 documentary; the point being that it acts as a deterrent to breaking social rules, making criticism or leaving the church, and thus is the kind of mechanism which places the chruch in danger of being seen as having "cult" like features. My apologies if this is there and I missed it. Jim Killock (talk) 05:47, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Larger issue - the lead: Something like 40% of the article is made up of criticisms and concerns about the church, but the lead gives these two lines at the end, less that 5% of the lead. AIUI WP policy is to ensure that (a) the article reflects the balance of public sources (which I assume it currently does, in broad terms) and (b) the lead reflects what is said in the main article. From this, I would seriously rework the introduction so it is about 60% related to the church's history, doctrines etc, and 40% a summary of the criticisms. Jim Killock (talk) 11:51, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Yes, the article lead issue is entirely fair. I'll work on it. Trevdna (talk) 23:02, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

The practice of "shunning" is more formally stated with the Jehovah's Witnesses. Are you sure it's not them that you're thinking of? I've lived my entire life as an active, practicing LDS, and never heard it in the context of the LDS Church. A quick Google search for "LDS church shunning" doesn't pull up much: the first result is a blog that makes the case that the church practices shunning informally, but is pretty weak IMO. The second is a Quora article that has answers from both sides.

Do you have any more specifics on the documentary you saw? I'm not sure this shunning point can be corroborated with high quality independent sources, but I'd be happy to at least give it a go. Trevdna (talk) 23:01, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Yes you are correct about C4, it was indeed about the JWs. However I did find similar material on a Google Scholar search, without too much trouble. eg

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12119-023-10122-x

https://www.proquest.com/openview/5af2145e3fd131eb54b4500a8b59ded7/1?pq-origsite=gscholar&cbl=48252

But I would need to look into it more. It does seem that people who leave frequently lose social ties with their former friends and colleagues. This would tend to form an incentive to remain inside the church, whether driven by policy or belief. Jim Killock (talk) 00:00, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Query from Z1720

@Trevdna: It has been over a month since the last comment. Are you still interested in receiving feedback? I highly recommend that you review articles at WP:FAC now to build goodwill amongst the community and make it more likely that your nomination is reviewed. Z1720 (talk) 14:30, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

I think this is plenty of feedback, thank you. This PR request can be archived. -Trevdna (talk) 03:50, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

@Trevdna: To close the PR, please follow the directions at WP:PRG. Z1720 (talk) 18:06, 16 February 2024 (UTC)