Wikipedia:Peer review/The King and I/archive1

The King and I

This peer review discussion has been closed.
I've listed this article for peer review because… Ssilvers and I plan to nom it for FA and we'd like feedback before we do.

Thanks, Wehwalt (talk) 20:34, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

Very odd classification – a Rodgers and Hammerstein musical under "Language and Literature". Are you sure about this? Great choice for an article, though. Brianboulton (talk) 17:08, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

Where should it go then?--Wehwalt (talk) 17:14, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

Well, operas and musicals generally go under Arts (which is where I see you've put it now). I'll try and review it soon - got a few problems at the moment. Brianboulton (talk) 00:42, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Brianboulton comments: Some initial comments on the lead and early sections:

• Since Brynner is specified as Russian-American, should Lawrence be identified as British?
• "Lawrence died unexpectedly of cancer a year and a half after the opening, and the role of Anna was played by other actresses during the remainder of the Broadway run of 1,246 performances". The word "other" bothers me slightly, as being obvious in view of Lawrence's death. Would a better word be "several", or maybe "various"?
• "...in the hope that Avis would become the lady her mother pretended to be". Not sure about this – reads like a bit of editorial judgement.
• "Inception" does not seem adequate as the section title. Much of the content of the section, e.g. Hammerstein writing scenes in NY & London, Rodgers devising "exotic music", the composition of "Hello, young lovers", etc etc, is concerned with the writing and composition rather than the inception. Suggest divide the section or retitle "Inception and Creation"
• "Landon's William Morris agent" reads oddly. I know there's a link, but perhaps a brief explanation could be given?
• If possible avoid "...Lawrence. Lawrence..." perhaps by merging the sentences: "...ideal for Lawrence,[5] who purchased the rights to adapt the book for the stage."
• "Since any romantic feelings between the King and Anna could not be celebrated in song in 1951..." Why was this the case?

R&H broke a lot of taboos, but the King having an extramarital affair would have been pushing things for 1951. I'll make it clearer.

I don't think the problem was that it was extramarital, the problem was that it was an apparently interracial relationship between a white woman (since Anna was supposed to be white) with an East Asian king. In South Pacific, R&H had dealt with an interracial relationship, but it would have struck audiences as inappropriate for an East Asian king to be singing about his love for his white governess, and vice versa; so instead their romantic feeling were portrayed as present but suppressed. -- Ssilvers (talk) 02:21, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

• Characters, e.g. Tuptim and Lun Tha and later, the "Kralahome", are first mentioned without identification. It would be helpful to be aware of who they are.
• Brynner - an established television director: maybe mention that Brynner's career had developed in this way, rather than just stating the fact. What sort of stuff was he directing?
• "Sharaff was quoted as saying, "The first-act finale of The King and I will feature Miss Lawrence, Mr. Brynner, and a pink satin ball gown." I'm afraid I don't understand the purpose of this sentence at this point.

I love this sentence. It shows that the designer herself understood the over-the-top nature of the huge hoop skirt that was designed to show how out of place a Victorian British woman was in the court of Siam. I've tried to clarify it. -- Ssilvers (talk) 02:21, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

• "some mocking" → "some mockery" ?

More to follow. Brianboulton (talk) 22:43, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Thank you, we'll work through these. Still some rust to be shaken off the R&H, I fear.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:48, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Those things are all done.--Wehwalt (talk) 01:11, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

Yes, thanks. I tweaked a couple of things in the article per my comments above. -- Ssilvers (talk) 02:37, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

A few issues with the Plot section

• The wives are "panicked by the "evil eye" and lift their skirts over their heads as they flee." We are told this immediately after being told they had virtually nothing on under their skirts. I thought The King and I was a family show, not a nudie-fest.

According to my copy of the script, a wife screams "Evil eye! Evil eye!" followed by the stage direction, "The wives in an uncontrollable stampede throw their hoopskirts over their heads and rush out. From the look on SIR EDWARD's face, it is clear that they should have been supplied with undergarments." In every production I've seen (and the movie), the skirts are only lifted in the direction of Sir Edward, et al. The "practically no—undergarments" is how Anna expresses it after she realizes this a bit earlier on. Not sure what you're asking for.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:30, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

Not asking for anything, just being facetious. Sorry. Brianboulton (talk) 23:47, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

Sorry myself, oversensitive I fear.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:49, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

• "It develops that..." Slightly odd choice of verb, at least to Brit ears. The sense is "emerges"; would this be a better word?
• "Lua Tha is found dead": surely this requires a word of explanation - how he died, by whom etc?

INTERPRETER: "The man—the lover has been found. He is dead." Other than Tuptim saying "Dead ... Then I will join him soon ... soon" as she is dragged off, that's all we get on either of them. Neither is mentioned in the remainder of the play.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:30, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

• Do we know what happens to Tuptim?

Brianboulton (talk) 17:10, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

See above.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:30, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

On the Lua Tha/Tuptim matter, to prevent readers wondering as I did, I'd add a short sentence in the plot section, along the lines "Nothing more is heard of Tuptim's fate"

A few more points:

• Nitpicking, but the overture and entr'acte are not "songs"
• Any known reason why Landon got the cold shoulder?

The source says that she had sold her rights, had no say in the play, and "to her chagrin" was not invited to opening night.

• Maybe specify "London's West End". Not everyone will use the link.
• The sentence "For three months in 1952, Alfred Drake replaced Brynner." intrudes on the topic under discussion, nmaely Lawrence's failing health and declining performances.
• "Dr. Bill Cahan" - we don't normally title people this way, maybe "Bill Cahan, a doctor". My worry at this stage is that the focus of the article has moved too far from The King and I, to concentrate on Lawrence and her illness. Scope for some trimming, possibly?
• "he actually missed several" → "he missed several"
• "... the last City Center Light Opera production for three weeks in May 1968." Suggest a comma required after "production". Also perhaps "final" rather than "last"?
• wikilink "lip-synched"
• "Renshaw also focused on the spiritual elements of the piece, asking choreographers Lar Lubovitch and Jerome Robbins to create a "spiritual" ballet..." - It should be possible to avoid the "spiritual" repeat.

"sacred"? "Buddhist"? -- Ssilvers (talk) 06:20, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

I massaged that text.--Wehwalt (talk) 08:26, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

• "Lady Thiang was, again, Taewon Yi Kim". I think a "played by" needs to be inserted

I think it's acceptable in American English to say it in this way. "The King was, again, Yul Brynner".--Wehwalt (talk) 08:20, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

I haven't looked at the last few sections yet, but will leave any comments on these shortly. Brianboulton (talk) 23:58, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

OK, thanks, except where commented upon, we've adjusted those.--Wehwalt (talk) 08:26, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Last few bits

• "took over for Duncan" → "took over from Duncan"?

No, this is correct American usage. See this newspaper headline. I see that UK newspapers use "from". -- Ssilvers (talk) 00:56, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

• What is a "limited engagement"?

It is a theatrical run that has an announced end date. The usual indefinite run is called an "open-ended" engagement. See this headline from Playbill, which does not think it necessary to define the term. I think the words are self-explanatory enough to satisfy a general reader (although if anyone sees an applicable bluelink, I don't mind linking it), and that anyone who is really interested in the different types of theatrical engagements will know is terminology already. Note that we use it in over 200 Wikipedia articles. -- Ssilvers (talk) 00:56, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

• Technical musical terms such as "seconds" need to be linked, though which of the five disambiguated musical seconds is referref to is anyone's guess. Also "triplet", "quarter note".

Good idea. Done, except that, Wehwalt, I can't find a link for "6/2 chord". -- Ssilvers (talk) 00:56, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

I think the world will wobble and continue on without it.--Wehwalt (talk) 01:49, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

• Recordings: I'm a little worried about the neutrality of this section, which includes critics' recommendations and has a somewhat promotional feel. It may be wise to rethink the section.

Fixed. -- Ssilvers (talk) 00:56, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

• Link Gilbert and Sullivan

Done. - Ssilvers (talk) 00:56, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

• "to a certain extent he was coasting on his charisma" - identity of "he" not clear.

Fixed. -- Ssilvers (talk) 00:56, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

• A general point: you have separated the record of performances and revivals from their critical reception. I don't know if this is a good idea; it leads to some repetition. Perhaps worth a thought?

Yes, definitely worth a thought. We will review this carefully and decide where each quote/reception comment goes. Our goal is to avoid repetition, but I think that if they mostly concern the performances of the actors, rather than the reception of the revival as a whole, that for subsequent performances they should go in the "Production" section rather than the "Reception" section. -- Ssilvers (talk) 00:56, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

That concludes my reading. As ever, the detail is very impressive and I can see no serious problems to be addressed. Brianboulton (talk) 23:37, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for these detailed comments! -- Ssilvers (talk) 00:56, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

My thanks as well, and glad we have have a non-coin to offer reviewers! Ssilvers, let us confer on article talk on what should be done in view of the above comments. I think the major issue is the fact we basically run through the production history once to tell the readers about who was in them, and once to tell the reader of the reviews. That's only going to be more blatant with the three remaining R&H (not counting the movies later adapted into play), each has very long production histories. I guess the question is, do we combine them? But let's take it to article talk.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:08, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Comments from Tim riley - first few; more to come:

• Creation

• "he wrote a second scene in the British capital" – perhaps just "while there"?

I added "while", but I think "there" might be ambiguous in this complex sentence. -- Ssilvers (talk) 22:20, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

• "Hammerstein originally had a very different conception" – different from his later version, I assume, but the matter could be clearer

I just looked at this very hard, and I think it is clear as is. All of the ways I came up with to make this explicit were longer and clunky - the best was: "the scene that, in the final version of the show, includes 'Shall We Dance'". I really don't think anyone will be confused, but if Tim or Wehwalt has an elegant solution, good. -- Ssilvers (talk) 22:20, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

• "free of articles, as are many Oriental languages … even when he sang, especially in his one solo, "A Puzzlement"" – not wholly free of articles, evidently

I added "mostly". -- Ssilvers (talk) 22:20, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

• Casting and tryouts

• Are the first five sentences of the first para all corroborated in ref 28?

• Original productions

• "On the day of her funeral, The King and I cancelled its performance" – has any play ever cancelled a performance of itself?

Redrawn. -- Ssilvers (talk) 22:20, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

• Brynner reprises the role

• West End – blue linked here, but not at previous mention Tim riley (talk) 21:44, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

I agree - it is not necessary to link it again, as it was linked twice already in the early part of the article. Fixed. -- Ssilvers (talk) 22:20, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for these, Tim. Wehwalt, can you address Tim's question about the Hammerstein book reference? Looking forward to the rest of your comments, Tim! -- Ssilvers (talk) 22:20, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

I'm away from home until the 19th and do not have my references (on this anyway), with me. Those two pages are not part of the Google Books preview, but they're talking about TKaI on page 206, so that's a good sign. Assume it will be checked when I get home and corrected if necessary.

Second and last batch from Tim

• 1991 to 2002

• "…director Christopher Renshaw's Australian production" – I think this might flow better if you omit "director", which is implicit.

Redrawn for precision per Hischak, p. 150 and to avoid saying "production" so many times. Renshaw was not the producer, only the director. -- Ssilvers (talk) 05:12, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

• "The production came to Broadway" – "came"? or "went"? Depends where you live. Better to reword with geographical neutrality.

Good point. Redrawn. -- Ssilvers (talk) 05:12, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

• "Both the book and score were revised and adapted" – This whets the appetite without satisfying it. How were they revised and adapted?

Thanks. I reviewed the sources and re-organized the first two paragraphs, fixing some details. I don't think the music was significantly altered (the only reference to music is that a reprise of "Shall we Dance" was added) so I deleted that. -- Ssilvers (talk) 05:12, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

• "The revival was well-received" – I get in a tangle with hyphens in such constructions, but I think (mind, I say I think) you can leave it out here.

Quite right! -- Ssilvers (talk) 05:12, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

• 2004 to present

• "at Royal Albert Hall" – at the RAH, please, unless you want a penny curse delivered by return of post.

Is that OK with you, Wehwalt? I'm making the change as Tim suggests, but this is an American English article.... -- Ssilvers (talk) 05:12, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

I think it works in American English either way, so I would bow to Tim on this. It's not like us calling Liverpool F.C. a "soccer team" in Carousel rather than a football club.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:27, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

• Film and television versions

• "and although it cut a few songs, reviews were enthusiastic" – your "although" implies that pruning songs should have brought down critical wrath. A touch tendentious, possibly.

Redrawn to avoid the implication. -- Ssilvers (talk) 05:12, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

• Recordings

• "The original cast recording was released by Decca Records" – I am perfectly prepared to be shot down, but I thought Decca was called London Records in the US in those days.

Wehwalt? -- Ssilvers (talk) 05:12, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

I'll check Hischak when I'm home on Saturday. Certainly the best source and I will compare with other sources if need be.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:27, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

• "his sole use for that CD is as a coaster" – no quibble here, just to record that I nearly fell off the sofa laughing: an excellent inclusion.

Yes, it may be challenged at FA, but it's too good to cut prospectively. -- Ssilvers (talk) 05:12, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

• Critical reception

• "that paper's reviewer" – I think this mention of the NY Times is far enough away from the previous one that elegant variation is otiose and you could, with advantage, just mention the paper by its title.

Done. -- Ssilvers (talk)

• "with The Financial Times called it" – either "when" or "calling".

Yes, I think we meant "calling". -- Ssilvers (talk) 05:12, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

I extravagantly enjoyed this article. Please prod me when it gets to FAC. It will sail through come what may, but I'd like to add my support. – Tim riley (talk) 23:15, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for these excellent comments. -- Ssilvers (talk) 05:12, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

My thanks as well. Ssilvers, shall we close the peer review?--Wehwalt (talk) 08:25, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

May as well leave it open until we finish our review of the footnotes. Note that Tim noted a couple of new issues above that I was unable to resolve. -- Ssilvers (talk) 08:51, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

That's fine. I've responded above.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:27, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

This peer review discussion has been closed.