Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Computing/2023 April 5

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April 5

Polynomial based Artificial Neural networks

I am new to AI, and interested about artificial neural networks. I am mainly curious to know if there is a field of neural networks that applies polynomial functions (as activation) to simulate continuous functions. I found that I takes only one hidden layer, much less number of neurons, and direct weights (which are just the coefficients of the polynomial activation functions). Moreover, the weights can be directly and exactly solved without learning, meaning much less time and datasets. I think this should have its own applications in simulators/process models, predictors.Almuhammedi (talk) 14:03, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

Functions defined by a univariate polynomial are continuous. Do you mean the approximation of transcendental functions such as $g(x)=x\Phi (x)$ by piecewise polynomial splines?  --Lambiam 19:56, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

I mean in general any unknown continuous function that can be approximated automatically using a special configuration of neural networks. But rather than conventional algorithms used to train the network in order to optimize weights and biases, why not use a special algorithm that solves the weights and biases in terms of given samples of datasets. In this case there will be no need for hundreds of epochs for learning but faster, accurate and reliable algorithms (such as tylor expansion sulotions or linear equations solutions).Almuhammedi (talk)

Windows 98

Apparently while I was searching for a Windows 98 laptop to buy for testing most of the product descriptions say " First Edition Windows 98 operating system means no internet/browser support!,". How do I get my internet to get connected to it, and does it depend on what model of laptop the OS is on and is there anything else I should know before buying one? Many thanks. Rugoconites Tenuirugosus (talk) 20:08, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

Windows 98 as I remember contained IE 4.0 browser which is so outdated now that you cannot really use it. Ruslik_Zero 20:35, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

Agreed. I think the warnings are not that you cannot connect to the internet, but rather that you're doing so at your own risk; it's now wildly out of date. Matt Deres (talk) 02:12, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

And with https now widespread, its likely that the browser won't have the right certificates to connect to many websites. RudolfRed (talk) 03:04, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

Can theoldnet.com or other websites be used to access older versions of websites on Windows 98? Rugoconites Tenuirugosus (talk) 07:43, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

Honestly asking, what do you want to do with it. Note that the World Wide Web is not the Internet. Win 98 can grab an Internet connection just fine, though don't expose it to the public Internet without it being strictly firewalled or it'll be quickly pwned by malware.

Generally it's going to be a lot easier to run Win 98 in a virtual machine on a modern system. Then you can easily move files back and forth into the VM environment, control its network connection, all that. Unless you really strictly need to get into the weeds of Win 98 hardware compatibility this is what you want to go with. If you just want to test whether some program works on Win 98 that should be sufficient. --47.155.46.15 (talk) 06:15, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

Are there any ways to connect the computer with the OS wirelessly? Because I've seen that most of the time people need to buy a cable to connect it to their router. Rugoconites Tenuirugosus (talk) 07:41, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

You are using terminology very incorrectly. The computer is the physical machine that you can hold with your hands. The OS is the operating system. You are discussing Windows 98. So, the OS is Windows 98. It is a program - a big program - that is installed on the hard drive inside the computer. You don't "connect" the computer with the OS. The OS is installed on the computer. The router has nothing to do with that. A router is a network device that can direct network traffic. In many homes, there is a modem of some kind that is connected to the Internet. A router connects to the modem and each computer device inside the home, directing traffic so the devices can send requests to the Internet and get responses back. But, in the end, you say that you want it for "testing." Developers do not test using a Windows 98 laptop. They use a virtual machine, as mentioned above. You create a virtual computer on your main computer and install Windows 98 on it. Then, you use that virtual machine to do your testing. You can have dozens of virtual machines to test all kinds of operating systems without the need for a lot of extra hardware laying around. 97.82.165.112 (talk) 11:14, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

I do not wish or want to publicly disclose my reasonings for why I want one. I am only concerned about whether or not I can use the internet on it. Rugoconites Tenuirugosus (talk) 12:09, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

The method normally used to connect a laptop to the internet is WiFi, which follows the IEEE 802.11 series of standards. Our article section about this standard indicates it was first available in a Windows computer with the IBM Thinkpad in 2000, so WiFi would not have been supported by the original Windows 98, and would not have been supported by the hardware of a laptop that was sold when Windows 98 first became available. Perhaps support was added in an update later. Jc3s5h (talk) 11:33, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

Those old laptops would have a network connector for a standard CAT5 cable. You can connect to your router or directly to most Internet modems. It likely has a landline phone connector as well, so you could hunt for a dial-up connection to really relive the old days. 97.82.165.112 (talk) 12:51, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

Do I require an Ethernet to Wi-Fi bridge to convert the Ethernet signal into Wi-fi one or is there anything else that can be used? I also want to know if it depends on what kind of laptop the OS is pre-installed on. Rugoconites Tenuirugosus (talk) 14:49, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

Ethernet generally means "connected using a basic CAT5 ethernet cable." Wi-Fi generally means "connected using a basic wireless connection." The issue is what you are connected to. Are you connecting to a router or a hub or a switch or a modem? Is there port for a cable on that device? If so, you can connect to it with a cable. If there isn't, you cannot. Please understand from all that has been said over and over, you do NOT want to do this. It is too hard and will not get the results that you think it will get. 97.82.165.112 (talk) 16:00, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

I've searched on Amazon for Ethernet to Wi-fi bridges and I seem to find ones between £10-40 which seem suitable, although I still need to see which ones actually would fit. Rugoconites Tenuirugosus (talk) 19:55, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

RE: I'm only able to find CAT5e ethernet cables online rather than the basic CAT5 cable. I've looked up that CAT5e is a varient of CAT5 and also reduces cross walk and provides faster transportation rate. I'm still unsure if I should buy a CAT5e cable or look on the internet for a normal CAT5 one. Rugoconites Tenuirugosus (talk) 10:58, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

• So, Rugoconites Tenuirogsus, your cogent question appears to be "is there anything else I should know before buying one?". Based on your responses here, I think the best answer to that is clearly "A whole lot more about about computer architecture and how computers work than can be explained adequately in a few dozen lines of text in a forum such as this". People are trying to explain things to you using terms and concepts you clearly don't understand. If you want to know how to do what you want to do, you're probably going to have to spend a lot more time learning about the computer architecture and operating systems and the like from 25 years ago; either find old textbooks and spend a few weeks teaching yourself how to do it, or find some old fart in your life who knows the intricacies of how computers and operating systems worked in the late 1990s to do what you want to do, and is willing to spend some time teaching it to you. Furthermore, and perhaps the most important point, is that this entire discussion suffers from what is known as the X Y problem; which is to say that the actual problem you are trying to solve, you are deliberately not telling anyone. When you ask about what you think is a related problem, you're only going to confound people trying to help you, and no one is going to be able to provide any useful help. You're going to have to come off the "I do not wish or want to publicly disclose my reasonings for why I want one. I am only concerned about whether or not I can use the internet on it." in order to get the help you need. If you just want to know "Can a computer from the late 90s, running Win98, access the internet", the answer is "kinda, but not really, as the only software available to do so on that operating system is so outdated that it hasn't kept up with changes to how the internet runs today." It's sorta like trying to run a gasoline engine on diesel fuel: I think you could probably get it to turn over and fire a few times, but you're to completely fuck up your car and make it unusable, so please don't do that. Similarly, yeah, I think you could get a Win98 machine using IE or Netscape to access the World Wide Web in some fashion using a physical ethernet connection, but as noted above, it won't go well. --Jayron32 16:58, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

  The problem is that because of my extremely bad Windows 10 Laptop I have to downgrade to a laptop with Windows 98 on it. No other options because of budget and I'm asking questions like the ones able to clear up some immediate questions which appeared in my head. I don't really care about how many problems there are with accessing the Web since I've gotten used with that because of my current laptop. I'm not English so I think that me not understanding certain words or terms is my problem. Rugoconites Tenuirugosus (talk) 17:34, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

You will certainly spend a LOT more money trying to get an old unsupported laptop to work with modern technology than purchasing a new laptop. Within seconds, I found multiple sources for brand new Chromebooks under $100 and new Windows laptops under $200. Searching EBay for extremely old laptops, which I immediately question the reliability of, the cheapest I found was over $300. If I were to buy one to try and use, I would be setting myself up for failure because if I were to be able to get online, the machine would be full of viruses and malware in a few hours. So, the whole thing would be a waste of time when I could get a brand new protected Chrombook for under $100. 97.82.165.112 (talk) 19:13, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

I found a laptop that is at the edge of the same price range that you suggested (being £200, $248.95) should be useful. I'm not willing to buy CD's to put into my current laptop because it has some quite important documents onto it and I want to use the 98 laptop to use it as a sort-of replacement for the current one and to also have more freedom since my current laptop is from my brother.

Can I also ask, what are some good sources that I can use to learn more about computer architecture and etc. so that way I don't feel like a total moron when trying to figure out something? Many thanks. Rugoconites Tenuirugosus (talk) 19:33, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

Probably the only feasible way to get such an old laptop accessing the internet at all effectively and safely would be to install Linux on it. There are modern versions of Linux designed for old hardware, and they run web browsers meeting modern standards. They may run rather slowly. How much RAM does your laptop have? If it has 512 MB or more, that would be fine. If it has only a fraction of that, such as 64 or 32 MB, this is probably not worth trying. People here may be able to recommend a suitable Linux distribution once we know the laptop specifications.-gadfium 19:23, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

On my current laptop I have 3.8/7.9 GB left of it and it appears that with a quick Google search (from most of the top results) it's probably enough. Rugoconites Tenuirugosus (talk) 19:38, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

RE: although are you talking about replacing the current Windows version on my present Laptop? Because if so I'm not replacing the already pre-installed Operating System with W98. Rugoconites Tenuirugosus (talk) 19:41, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

1: What is wrong with your current laptop running Windows 10? Please state the make and model number, amount of RAM and hard disk size. We may be more able to help you with that problem.
2: I seriously doubt you will get a satisfactory experience, especially on the internet, with a PC running Win 98. What sort of laptop are you intending to install it on? Again, please state the make and model, otherwise we will be wasting our time. I would consider just finding the drivers for the hardware for a relatively recent laptop to be a major challenge. Windows 98 has so many limitations - even trying to get USB ports to work can be a challenge, and USB memory sticks may need their own drivers which just won't be available for modern ones.
3: Why exactly do you think that Win 98 will be of any use? It's almost stone age in OS terms, and anyway it doesn't like being installed in a PC with more than 512MB of physical RAM, although you can tweak the System.ini file to allow it to cope with a massive 1GB.
4. If you just need an older OS I would suggest Windows XP with SP3 which is still just about usable with Firefox 47, but lots of websites just don't work with it.
5. If you insist on carrying on with this project: if you can find a copy, I would install Windows 98 SE, an 'unofficial' service pack 3 which includes all the updates and fixes pretty much all the problems with previous versions. MinorProphet (talk) 01:53, 9 April 2023 (UTC)