Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Entertainment/2008 August 13

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August 13

Uneven bars

Originally posted on Wikipedia:Reference desk/Miscellaneous, moved here as Entertainment covers sport.

When did the Asymmetric Bars in gymnastics become the Uneven Bars? The latter just sounds child-like to me. They were called Asymmetric bars when I used to watch the Olympics as a kid. Jooler (talk) 17:16, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

I've always known the apparatus as Asymmetric Bars and didn't even know the name had changed, but looking at the article history I see Uneven Bars was first created in May 2003, while Asymmetric Bars was first created in December 2005. To me though, it sounds like a dumbing down of sport like the dumbing down of TV, or maybe today's poorly educated journalists (and wiki-editors) can't spell asymmetric  :-). Astronaut (talk) 18:19, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Just noticed this edit summary - http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Gymnastics_uneven_bars&diff=944640&oldid=944514 Jooler (talk) 19:37, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

"Asymmetric bars" gets 245 hits in Google News and 328 including archives, and 2 from 1979 and older. "Uneven bars" gets 1173 hits in Google News and 23,200 including the news archives, and 794 from 1979 and older. Wikipedia prefers the most commonly used term. Edison (talk) 19:40, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Two points. Firstly "the most common term" and "what Wikipedia uses" are not part of the question. Secondly. Such simple Google searches prove nothing. Google news archives typically use only US based resources. Jooler (talk) 19:51, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Untrue. Please provide evidence. Corvus cornix_talk 20:23, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Find me something not from the US for before 1998. Jooler (talk) 20:34, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Here you go: "A perfect 10". Archived radio clip of a July 1976 Canadian Broadcasting Corporation broadcast by Peter Gzowski discussing Nadia Comaneci's performance on the "uneven parallel bars". - Eron^Talk 20:52, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Was this obtained via Google News Archives? (It wasn't was it). If it was, perhaps I should have said non-North American. Jooler (talk) 20:56, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

The author of this is Russian, writing in 1990. Corvus cornix_talk 21:05, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Google Books is not Google News Archive Jooler (talk) 21:12, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

And I am not a tortoise. Non sequitur. Corvus cornix_talk 22:08, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

We were talking about Google News Archive and it using predominantly United States/North American sources (certainly for before 1998). Jooler (talk) 23:32, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

No, you asked for something not from the US for before 1998. Not something not from the US for before 1998 from Google News Archive. Corvus cornix_talk 03:52, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Clearly that statement was in the context of this thread, whereby you disputed my claim about Google News Archive using predominantly US based archives. 07:20, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

This says "asymmetric bars", I'm not sure what nationality the reportage is, but the announcers clearly have non-North American accents. It's from 1989, apparently. Corvus cornix_talk 21:07, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

FYI that is a British broadcast. I'm surprised you can't recognise a British accent. There's also a big clue in the video The Daily Mirror logo is prominently shown. Jooler (talk) 21:22, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

I didn't see the logo. Since I found it at nz.youtube, I thought it might be Kiwi, but why should I be expected to recogniz/se a British accent? Let's try to remain civil, shall we? Corvus cornix_talk 22:09, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Why not? I like most of my countrymen could recognise the nationality of most native English accents without too much difficulty with with perhaps the possible exception of confusing Aussie and New Zealand (see Fish and Chips). Jooler (talk) 23:32, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

How marvelous for you. Can you differentiate between American, Canadian, New England, Californian, Bermudan, Belizean, New Jersey and Texan? Corvus cornix_talk 03:52, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes certainly. I can also tell a Geordie from a Cockney, and Received Pronunciation from Estuary English and Scouse from Brummie. Jooler (talk) 07:22, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

But the BBC is calling the event "uneven bars". Corvus cornix_talk 21:10, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes that's the point of the whole question. The BBC and others including the competitors themselves are now calling it the Uneven Bars. When did it change? It appears that Uneven Bars was more commonly used in the US. But the edit summary I quoted above suggested that the official name was changed. Jooler (talk) 21:14, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

This may be a question of different national usages. I am in Canada, and until reading this question I had never heard the term "asymmetric bars". To me, the event has always been called the uneven bars since I first saw it on TV during the Montreal Olympics. - Eron^Talk 20:00, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Probably a national question all right. I have never, until now, heard of the "Uneven Bars". It was always the "asymmetric bars". I wonder why we have recently adopted the North American name for the sport. Which I guess is the essence of the question. Fribbler (talk) 21:18, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

I can confirm that in Canada, it's uneven bars as far back as I can remember (and I remember Nadia). Looking at the IOC website, the medal searches are for "uneven bars" also, all the way back (though that could have changed at some point). I think this may be one of those areas where the Brits call it one thing, the ROW another. When you say it used to be called the asymmetric bars, are you referring to an official Olympic designation from some time ago, or to your local/national news reportage at the time? Franamax (talk) 23:32, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

When I was in high school in Canada c.1970, they were "uneven parallel bars", not just "uneven bars". Note that that's what the CBC is cited above as using in 1976. I don't remember ever hearing "asymmetric bars" before this reference desk thread, although I've never paid much attention to gynmastics. --Anonymous, 03:02 UTC, August 12, 2008.

The IOC AFAIK uses (or at least used to use) British English (hence Football at the Summer Olympics, Athletics (not track and field), Hockey not Field Hockey (Our article doesn't reflect this), and thus I believe it was officially called Asymmetric Bars, but I have no evidence of this. The link above suggests that there was a Guardian article about it being changed to uneven bars. Jooler (talk) 23:44, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure it's correct to say the IOC uses British English. Perhaps they do, perhaps they don't, but what is relevant here is that for sports they use the terminology that the relevant international sport federation uses. It's called football because that's what FIFA calls it, not because that is the British English term. The same applies for hockey (FIH), ice hockey (IIHF), athletics (IAAF), etc.- Eron^Talk 00:58, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

See [1] - "As an example, information must be provided in: English, French and the local language. The detail of the requirements can cause some difficulties. The particular form of English required for the Olympics is British English. This may cause confusion for those educated in US English." Jooler (talk) 07:53, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

FWIW, all mentions of the event at the Federation International de Gymnastique website refers to it as "uneven bars", while the word "asymmetrical" does not yield a single hit. If "asymmetrical" was ever the official term, there's no evidence of it. Now, "uneven" might seem "dumbed down" to some of you, but isn't it more accurate, since the bars are only asymmetrical if you're looking at it from the sides and perfectly symmetrical when you're looking at it head-on, but they're uneven from all four directions. --Mosmof (talk) 23:57, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

The site you've linked to (fedintgym.com) does not appear to be correct or current. Try clicking on the link to English. The correct site is fig-gymnastics.com. Also the word is asymmetric, not asymmetrical - see [2]. Not many hits though, there are nearly as many hits for the misspelling "asymetric", but its not really the point anyway. Jooler (talk) 00:14, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Switching to Google News UK (which is not U.S.-centric), "Asymmetric bars" gets 253 hits, with 328 hits including archives, and 2 from 1979 and earlier. "Uneven bars" gets 1221 hits, with 23,300 including archives, and 794 for 1979 and earlier. In what alternate reality did people call this event "asymmetric bars"? Edison (talk) 00:52, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

The alternate reality of my memory, as least... The evidence seems pretty damning, though. --Tango (talk) 00:59, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

I dunno about "damning". Google News UK archives is just the same as Google News USA archives as far as I can see, and I can't see anything from a UK source before 1998. As for recent years, that's the whole point of the question. It is NOW usual for the British media and the competitors to say "uneven bars". Edison - What are the links for what you have found? Jooler (talk) 07:31, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Why is it being suggested that "uneven bars" is a dumbed-down version of "asymmetric bars"? The former describes the bars better, I think. "Asymmetric bars" could mean any bars that are not symmetrical, so if, for example, they were at even height but one was longer. "Uneven bars" suggests they are at different heights. Also, the uneven bars are symmetrical, you just need to change your plane of reference (either look at them from the front or back, or look from the side at a tilt). — Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 01:08, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

I've found a Guardian article from 20 September 2000 which is probably the one mentioned above. http://www.guardian.co.uk/sydney/story/0,,370704,00.html it says "In 1997 she was the all-around world champion and she has been the queen of the asymmetric bars - now dumbed down to the description "uneven" - for the last four world championships, and won the Olympic gold medal in Atlanta." - At first glance I thought the " last four world championships" was referring to the "dumbing down" but of course it is referring to Svetlana Khorkina's hold on the World championship. Jooler (talk) 07:39, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Seems we're not the only ones pondering this question. This forum question is very similar and even worries the dumbing down might extend to renaming the parallel bars to the 'side by side bars' :-) Astronaut (talk) 16:25, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Don't know about the UK, but from what I can remember most coverage here in NZ has referred to the bars as 'asymmetric' Nil Einne (talk) 09:57, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

I assume that, because of the current Olympic games, the questioner is actually asking when the IOC stopped referring to the apparatus as "asymmetric bars" and started referring to them as "uneven bars". That is easy. It was part of a vote (that was a bit overshadowed by a vote against political demonstrations at the games) that took place on ... wait, what's the point. Isn't the questioner just going to delete my response anyway? -- kainaw™ 12:30, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

I think there are two issues here: What the sport governing bodies call a sport, event, or apparatus, and what the people watching the sport call it. There is a lot of evidence that some parts of the the English speaking-world have called this the uneven bars for many years, while in other areas it used to be called asymmetric bars and only recently changed to uneven bars. What I haven't seen is any evidence that the Fédération Internationale de Gymnastique ever called this event the asymmetric bars. Searching on "asymmetric" at the Federation website turns up nothing. - Eron^Talk 13:54, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

You are incorrect. As I pointed out earlier searching fig-gymnastics.com does in fact turn up a number of hits (here) and also a number of hits for the misspelling "asymetric" (here). I think you must have searched exel.fig-gymnastics.com instead. However as the Guardian article was written in 2000 it suggests that the "dumbing down" to uneven bars would have happened before most of the documents on the website were written. Jooler (talk) 17:25, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

There appear to be a number of FIG related sites. I cannot access any site called fig-gymnastics.com. Going to www.fig-gymnastics.com brings up a splash page that redirects visitors looking for the "Main FIG Website" to exel.fig-gymnastics.com. Every link on the list of search results you provided comes up as a 404 for me, suggesting that the fig-gymnastics site no longer exists.

That said, there do appear to be cached pages available at Google. Searching fig-gymnastics for "asymmetric bars" turns up six results. One good example of these results is this cached page. It is an athlete bio. In the list of her results, it calls the apparatus the uneven bars. In the narrative at the bottom, it calls the apparatus asymmetric bars.

This strongly suggests to me that the official name is, and probably has been for some time, the uneven bars. Asymmetric bars seems to be a regional usage. This is supported by a search of fig-gymnastics for "uneven bars" which turns up 94 results. - Eron^Talk 17:48, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

This site http://www.databaseolympics.com/index.htm uses the term asymmetric. Jooler (talk) 18:13, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes it does. It also states "We are not affiliated with the Olympics or any other Olympic organization."

You apparently have decided already what answer you want, and are not interested in any information that does not match that answer. I think I'm done here. Sorry I couldn't give you what you were looking for. - Eron^Talk 18:21, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

On the contrary, I'm trying to find the answer to the original question: "When did it change?" , in doing so I'm doing my own research and bringing it here for discussion. As such I have already made it clear that in all likelihood the date of change pre-dates 2000 as the Guardian article from September 2000 states "the asymmetric bars - now dumbed down to the description "uneven"" - clearly the author of that article (a sports journalist called Stephen Bierley who it appears (from a quick Google) still contributes sports reports to the Guardian) believed that at one time it was called "asymmetric" and was now "uneven". You say "This strongly suggests to me that the official name is, and probably has been for some time, the uneven bars." - well yes, from at least 2000 as I'd already indicated. So we are partially there with the answer, but not completely. I found the www.databaseolympics.com site shortly before I had to go off and make the dinner. So I didn't even see the "We are not affiliated with the Olympics or any other Olympic organization." bit. I am still trying to find a definitive answer. It it turns out that they have always been "uneven bars" and evidence is provided to show this, I'll be just as happy as I would if i found a date for a change. I'm sorry you seem to have taken offence. Jooler (talk) 19:34, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

yeah, I'd already come to the conclusion that Jooler is more interested in argumentation and proving his superiority, rather than a discussion of the topic, therefore I dropped out of this conversation several days ago. Corvus cornix_talk 19:18, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm also sorry you too have taken offence. You said to me "prove it" regarding google news archive - which I tried to do by posing a challenge to you to find a non-US article from before 1998 on Google News archives. You then seemed to misinterpret this entirely, and provide responses that had nothing to do with Google News Archive. Jooler (talk) 19:34, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

It looks to me like you've had the answer above - The Olympic Committee changed it in a vote at the same time they voted to ban political demonstations. That would be after the Seoul Olympics, if memory serves. Did you look into that? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.58.224.223 (talk) 00:17, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Wrong Olympics. Which one was famous for a show of black power on the medal podium? And no, he didn't look into it. He was too busy complaining about and deleting responses. -- kainaw™ 00:22, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Kainaw the tone of your original response above suggested to me that your answer was not intended to be taken seriously. So no I didn't look into it. As regards deleting unhelpful responses please see Wikipedia_talk:Reference_desk#Nonsense_answers. The guidelines allow for offensive postings to be deleted and I think that posting a nonsense answer shows disrespect to the OP of a question that amounts to taking the piss, which can be offensive. If you are serious (and I still don't know if you are or whether you are "taking the piss"), then it would be extremely helpful if you could post the evidence. Deliberately being obtuse doesn't help anyone. We are presumably talking about the addition of 51.3 of the Olympic Charter "No kind of demonstration or political, religious or racial propaganda is permitted in any Olympic sites, venues or other areas." Thank you. Jooler (talk) 08:21, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

It appears you are basing your view on an article in "The Guardian". How about any of these newspaper articles compared to this total lack of newspaper articles? (Note: All articles are from the 60's, which predates 2000.) The apparatus was introduced to the olympics in 1936. It was not accepted. It floundered for many years until becoming a staple event by 1970. So, to be most accurate, until the 70's, most people called it "those weird bars that none of the gymnasts want to use." -- kainaw™ 13:31, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

As I've pointed out numerous times within this thread, Google News Archives pre-1998 only contains sources from United States ( and a couple of Canadian) publications. Try a search of The Times digital archive - http://archive.timesonline.co.uk/tol/archive/ and you will find the first reference to Asymmetric Bars from 1961. Jooler (talk) 14:02, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps everyone in the world has a different definition of "when" then you have. You asked "When did the Asymmetric Bars in gymnastics become the Uneven Bars?". You have been shown repeatedly from many sources that they were called uneven bars as early as 1960 - long before they became popular. So, your answer is painfully clear - they ALWAYS were known by two different names. You were also given the exact point in time in which the IOC adopted one name instead of two. Your response is just a childish refusal to accept an answer you don't like. Why would people respond in a childish way to someone who is being childish? I don't know. -- kainaw™ 17:51, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Kainaw - It's been clear from the second answer that people in the US have used the term uneven bars for a long time. As you pointed out I was indeed referring to general usage and the IOC in particular. You're original posting hinted at an answer but provided no support for it or citation and was posted in a response which was deliberately designed to give an obtuse unclear answer and quite frankly it read like you were just taking the piss. You are the one playing childish games. If this is the answer then great!, that's exactly what I wanted to know, but how can I know whether it is true or your are just pulling my chain? In short how do you know that that is the answer? Jooler (talk) 12:20, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Popular London Radio Stations

Hi, Can someone please advise me as to what are the most popular radio stations in London in terms of current music? Ie, what is being played in the clubs, bars, etc? Many thanks MW198.240.130.75 (talk) 00:14, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Evidently it depends on what bars/clubs you go to and what style of music you are into. A place to start might be Uk radio stations and BBC Radio. It is far too dependent on what the 'style' of the club/bar is as to waht radio station will be similar to that style of music. 194.221.133.226 (talk) 14:57, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Australian Olympic attire

Watching the Olympics, I notice that all the Australian athletes regardless of sport are wearing teal and gold uniforms. It seems odd since their flag is red, white, and blue. Who decided on this color scheme and why? —D. Monack ^talk 03:42, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

It's confusing, isn't it. Although our flag is red, white and blue, our national colours are green and gold. Teal is a kind of bluey-green, which I guess is a bit of a nod to the flag's colours. -- JackofOz (talk) 03:46, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

See Green and gold: colours used by Aussie sporting teams since 1899. Gwinva (talk) 03:47, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Similarly, New Zealand, with a red/white/blue flag, wears black. See National colours for other examples. Gwinva (talk) 03:54, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

I imagine one reason is that anyone wearing red, white, and blue will likely be thought to be from the United States. StuRat (talk) 05:37, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

I think that statement lacks a bit of perspective, Stu. There are plenty of countries with those three colours. Also, Australia and NZ started wearing the colours they use today about a hundred years ago. Can you perhaps think of another place with red, white and blue in the flag that they had very, very close ties to at that time? (Consideration of the flag of that union might not be relevant though, since the constituent countries would have competed individually in many competitions, AFAIK) /Coffeeshivers (talk) 09:14, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

OK, let's broaden my statement a bit: "They avoid using red, white, and blue colors as those would be likely to cause confusion with all the other countries using those colors". StuRat (talk) 13:25, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Verily. At the Commonwealth Games, there are separate teams from England, Wales, Scotland, and Northern Island. To confuse matters, at the Olympics the team from the UK is referred to as "Great Britain", despite the fact that this is a purely geographical term for the large island containing England, Wales and Scotland (the UK is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland). On the other hand, "Ireland" at the Olympics refers to the whole island of Ireland, which includes Northern Ireland, a part of the UK (but not geographically of Great Britain). This gives competitors from Northern Ireland the afaik unique choice of being able to compete for either "Ireland" or "Great Britain", even though they belong to neither the country of Ireland nor the island of Great Britain. Confused yet? -- JackofOz (talk) 09:37, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

I noticed last night that the Australian swimmers seem to be wearing red, white and blue instead of green and gold. Corvus cornix_talk 19:20, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Really? All the Aussie swimmers I've seen have worn a dark green with yellow stars; track suits were green and yellow (gold) too. Gwinva (talk) 22:02, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Olympic Ticket Price

What were the ticket prices for the opening ceremonies for the 2008 Olympics? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.98.70.91 (talk) 04:57, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

They ranged from 200 yuan up to 5000 yuan for the best seats. (That's $29-$730) Link. Fribbler (talk) 11:47, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Of course, prices will be higher at unofficial outlets. F (talk) 08:26, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Is there a "Harlem Globetrotters" of baseball, football, etc.?

I haven't heard of one so maybe I'll start a multi man zany farm of hilarity! Can you imagine -guys running the bases backwards!? Having a 5'2" 300lb. "crazy man from the crowd" rush the football field and singlehandedly tackle the entire opposing team!? How about during a pro wrestling type pre game I get a "Hockey Hunk" to pose for pictures (old fashioned flash powder and all). Without warning his baby's mom would jump onto the stage, and hit him with a rolling pin! After "security" removes her, our hero poses alpha strong on the ice. When suddenly, he falls in! The funny part is only his hand would be visible sticking out of the water while he waves a white flag. Then, instead of refreezing the ice, get this, the hole would be duct taped over! The Harlem Globetrotters didnt last for years because people don't like sports satire.

Consider the phrase "Put a tent on that circus!" This cliche is so well entrenched that its astounding no one has made other parody sports. So I have now provided information.--Baseball and and and Popcorn Fanatic (talk) 18:39, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

There are a lot of parody sports to different degrees. What would you call the "Bud Bowl" or "Lingerie Football"? Neither one is serious. Note that to parody doesn't necessarily mean that it has to be funny. -- kainaw™ 18:55, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

The Indianapolis Clowns have been called "the Harlem Globetrotters of baseball". Zagalejo^^^ 01:18, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Rugby Union has the Baa-Baas - X201 (talk) 15:42, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Is there a copy of every baseball game somewhere?

Does MLB have copies only? How come we never see them? I'll bet a satellite channel of random games from the last 60 years or so would go over great!--Baseball and and and Popcorn Fanatic (talk) 20:08, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

ESPN Classic plays old games, don't they? Adam Bishop (talk) 00:55, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

They do. But at least the few times I was watching it, the games were heavily edited for time. I don't know if they did the editing or someone else up the line. Matt Deres (talk) 17:48, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Many older games were taped over or simply thrown out by the TV stations. This is allegedly the oldest complete regular season broadcast still in existence (though I haven't found an independent source to verify that). Some playoff games from the 1950s have also been preserved. Zagalejo^^^ 01:12, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

According to this article, MLB has copies of every postseason game since 1981. Zagalejo^^^ 01:33, 14 August 2008 (UTC)