Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Entertainment/2012 June 26

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June 26

Examples of old "westerns" with Native Americans speaking English?

I know that there are some old "westerns" showing the Native Americans speaking to each other in English, but I can't think of any examples at the top of my head. I was speaking to somebody that doesn't remember the old westerns being like that, and I would like to provide some examples. Thanks in advance for any information. InforManiac (talk) 17:26, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Note that when native Americans from distant tribes met, they might have actually spoken English, that being their only common language. StuRat (talk) 17:34, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for your response. I was meaning small talk between members of the same tribe. I was watching The Sons of Great Bear in which german was spoken by everybody. I explained to the other person sitting with me that in old westerns over here, when Native Americans spoke to each other, they did so in English instead of the film using subtitles. I was told that never happened, so now I am looking for examples of old westerns that did have the Natives speaking to each other in English. Thanks. InforManiac (talk) 18:05, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure the Broken Lance, Broken Arrow, White Feather movies featured this. In the last-mentioned, one of the natives even had the name American Horse. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 18:24, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Thank you. I will look into those. InforManiac (talk) 18:32, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

In Blazing Saddles, they spoke to each other in Yiddish. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:03, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Haha. I didn't know that. I'll also have to check that out. Thanks. InforManiac (talk) 01:39, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Wow, I thought everyone knew about that. :) That was done for comedic effect, especially as the film's director, Mel Brooks, played the Yiddish-speaking Indian. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:44, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

I never watched it, so that's probably why I didn't know. It sounds funny. InforManiac (talk) 01:55, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Some of the best comedy writing ever: by Mel Brooks, Richard Pryor, and others. Here's the scene I'm talking about:[1] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:20, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

In Geronimo (1962 film), the wily Indian (played by the blond, blue-eyed Chuck Connors) and his cohorts speak English (original trailer). There's also Little Big Man (1970).[2] Clarityfiend (talk) 09:26, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Some more...Comanche, Apache...maybe the Lone Ranger movies? Were there any natives other than Tonto? Adam Bishop (talk) 14:04, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

There's a bigger picture here, of course (there's always a bigger picture). In any old movie that featured both anglo speakers and non-anglo speakers, when the non-anglo people conversed with each other it was far more common to have them speaking in English but with a suitable foreign accent, than either of the alternatives: (a) speaking English with no added accent, or (b) speaking in some filthy foreign lingo and we had to rely on subtitles. So, you'd get the absurdity of Germans, for example, speaking to each other in broken English and strong German accents. In reality they would have been speaking perfectly correct German, but subtitles weren't the thing back then, and having them sound like Britishers or Americans or New Zealanders or Canadians would not have floated. If they actually were German actors with an international profile and who could speak English very well (Curd Jurgens, Werner Klemperer ...), they still had to ramp up the German accent for these purposes. Ring-ins like James Mason, Alec Guinness, etc, had to really put on a show. Now they have full-on German or whatever, with subtitles; or we have Tom Cruise playing Stauffenberg but sounding like, well, Tom Cruise. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 20:20, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

I have to admit, when I get a DVD with the options of watching in a foreign language with English subtitles, or watching a version dubbed into English, I go with the English dub. When reading subtitles, I just miss too many of the visuals. The weird thing is, the English subtitles and the English dub are often two entirely different translations. StuRat (talk) 22:02, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Well, if the members of the tribe are speaking with each other then Translation convention applies. There is a weird case in the Spanish western parody Al este del oeste in wich the actors are Spaniards playing the roles of British people. To the audience they are speaking Spanish but the implication is that the are "actually" spaking English and there is a running gag that the characters cannot understand the Mexican people of the village (they, of course, also speak Spanish, only with Mexican accent)--Pacostein (talk) 21:49, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

In Fort Apache, which is one of the all-time great westerns, this rather choppy clip doesn't show the Indians speaking among themselves, but they and the whites are speaking Spanish to each other - an interesting twist, especially with no subtitles.[3] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:34, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

I personally prefer to watch foreign shows and movies with the original audio and with English subtitles so that I can get the original feel. The Sons of Great Bear features (mostly?) German actors speaking in German for German audiences. They characters were supposed to be Americans and Dakota Sioux, but the actors spoke in German for the local audience. I have no idea if the Natives were speaking in broken German because I cannot speak that language. InforManiac (talk) 23:41, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

I actually always liked how they handled this in Red October - a few lines of Russian at the beginning, to establish that these people are in fact Soviets speaking in Russian to each other, then switch to English so they can have an action flick without the distraction of the audience having to either read subtitles the whole time or deconstruct butchered-on-purpose English words. Meanwhile, the Soviet naval attaché does use a Russian accent, because of course he would use Russian-accented English meeting with Americans in Washington! I tend not to mind subtitles myself, but I don't see the point where you have a lot of dialog between actors who don't actually speak the language their characters are "speaking." Das Boot - subtitled, good (great, even). Red October - wouldn't work well. At all. Plus, this way you're not distracted the entire movie by wondering just how badly Sean Connery is butchering the language, or whether he's actually secretly using a perfect Vilnius accent just because he can. ☯.ZenSwashbuckler.☠ 15:18, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

So what's the deal with this bizarre show Zen (TV series) ? Why do the Italian police have RP accents? I simply can't watch it, the accent is so disconcerting. μηδείς (talk) 01:50, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Surely it's not as distracting as watching Russians speak Russian-accented English to other Russians? ☯.ZenSwashbuckler.☠ 14:58, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

I wouldn't know, I have never been a fan of Eastwood's or of action films. And I don't mind my ancient Romans speaking English with Brooklyn accents or otherwise. But apparently British local cops in modern-day Italy is just odd. Is there a rationalization for the choice? μηδείς (talk) 17:14, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

I appreciate all the useful information. This is absolutely fascinating. InforManiac (talk) 06:09, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

You may also enjoy reading Allo Allo#Languages, where the phenomenon famously became the focus of much of the comedy of the programme itself. The funniest part, from an English speaker's point of view, was the character who was ostensibly a French policeman but who in fact was an undercover British agent speaking bad French. For the purposes of the programme, he therefore spoke in lightly French-accented English, but with horrific mispronunciations of certain easy words ("Good morning" came out as "Good moaning"), while the ostensibly French characters (who spoke in heavily French-accented English) stared at each other in baffled incomprehension. Great fun all round. Karenjc 17:34, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

μηδείς, as in the classic Tony Curtis mediaeval knight talking about the "cassle of my fahda".

But I'm not clear. Do you mean you would prefer the Italian cops to speak with an American accent, or with a lower-class British accent? As for why, I see it was a BBC-led co-production so I imagine they just automatically had the characters speaking in the BBC's "normal voice". It probably never crossed their mind it might sound strange to anybody in other English-speaking countries. The other possibility would be to have the British actors affecting a mock-Italian accent. But that seems to be out of fashion in serious dramas. As per Karenjc, it would produce a comic effect (lets laugh at the Italians speaking bad English) inappropriate to a serious programme.

There are limits of course. I must admit I would find it distracting if they were talking "Strine".

The problem is the infidelity to the contemporary setting. In a movie like Derek Jarman's Caravaggio (film) I was not in the least bothered by the Italian characters with British accents because you didn't get the impression from the film that there were a lot of visiting British artists and churchmen doing stints in Italy. In Zen, you keep expecting these are Interpol agents or liaison officers from Scotland Yard. The effect is entirely inauthentic. They should at least have tried Italian accents like Poirot with his French accent, or set the story in Britain. I am reminded of the absolutely ridiculous Shaft (2000 film) which was set in part in my neighbourhood of the Bronx. The supposed Dominican gangsters, who should have had a very distinctive look and had Spanish accents, looked and sounded so much like stereotypical Italians I got up and left the theater in disgust. At least it would have been worth a laugh had they been speaking Strine and looked Korean. μηδείς (talk) 17:21, 4 July 2012 (UTC)