Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Entertainment/2014 November 27

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November 27

Baseball or cricket: which is more lethal?

I've been able to find some data on cricket deaths but very little on baseball. For baseball near the top of the Google results is this 1920 case. Is cricket so much more dangerous than baseball? If so why? If not, why can't I find as many cases in Google? Contact Basemetal here 16:40, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

I expect you're bringing this up because of the death of cricketer Phil Hughes. The only death from on-field action in modern MLB that I'm aware of is the Chapman case in 1920. That arose due to several circumstances, not the least of which is that there were no batting helmets then. A player named Jim Creighton, in the 1860s, died from an injury sustained on-field, though that was not caused by being hit by the ball. There have also been severe, career-changing but non-lethal injuries on-field from being hit by a pitched or batted ball. Dizzy Dean, Herb Score, Tony Conigliaro and Kirby Puckett come to mind right away. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:20, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

Was it ok to link to the relevant articles in your post? We're not supposed to touch each other's interventions but in this case it changes nothing to what you had to say and it makes it more convenient for readers. Contact Basemetal here 18:21, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

I like how you refer to Bugs' utterances as "interventions" (Seinfeld would approve). The rest of us are happy with "contributions".  :) -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 18:54, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

Contibution's fine but more general than what I was trying to say. I was looking for another word. Something like 'statement'. What do you call the successive utterances of people taking part in a debate? 'Motion', 'proposition', etc. on the other hand would be too specific.Contact Basemetal here 19:33, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

Transactions? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 20:42, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

Sorry about failing to link. I appreciate the fix-up. :) As to the term to use, "contributions", "edits", "comments", and probably other terms are fine. :) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:06, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

But given the user name shouldn't his postings be called rabbitings? Sorry Bugs couldn't resist. CambridgeBayWeather (mobile) (talk) 03:21, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

In my signature, I call them "carrots". But that's kind of non-standard. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:58, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

No, cricket is not more dangerous than baseball. Until Phil Hughes, in the entire history of cricket there had only ever been one case of this kind. I could be wrong, but I daresay there have been far more cricket games played than baseball games. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 20:48, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

Hard to say which games/matches there have been "more of" for their respective sports, and I'm sure there have more than one such incidents in baseball (across many, many times more games) at all levels: minor league, college, high school, little league, etc. As of 2009, the number of MLB games played from 1900 onward was approaching 250,000.[1] The extreme rarity of a death from on-field play probably provides too small a number to argue statistically that one is "more dangerous" than the other - they are both statistically close to 0. And in both the Chapman and the Hughes case, it was the result of a rare set of circumstances, essentially "bad luck". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:14, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

The article about Hughes above is referring to that specific injury, not any injury caused by cricket, Cricket ball#Dangers of cricket balls describes multiple other deaths and injuries--Jac16888 ^Talk 00:50, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

And even in that article, the headline refers to "one other case", implying that there were two. The doctor is quoted as saying that there has been "only one case reported", but that could well mean (as the headline writer apparently took it to mean) reported previously, probably meaning in medical journals rather than the press. If he'd meant "this is the first case", he'd probably have used a different wording. --65.94.50.4 (talk) 10:29, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

These pages list cricketers who died from being hit by a ball. Their lists include one umpire. But these are all from the past 50 years only. On the other hand they mix several levels of the game, whereas Bugs restricted himself to Major League. Even so, there's other cases than Phillip Hugues (Raman Lamba, Abdul Aziz) even at the top level. (Check out the lists.) Number of games played could be an explanation. And cricket games are longer too. Contact Basemetal here 21:06, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

I can remember at least two little-league or varsity deaths caused by a baseball strike to the chest, which induced heart failure, since the 90's when my athlete sister died of (non-baseball-related) heart failure. It's unlikely these would be counted in major-league statistics, and the death of 20-y/o-ish athletes on the field is not unheard-of in any exertion-filled sport. μηδείς (talk) 00:44, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

I've never played cricket, but I've held a brand-new cricket ball in my hand, and it seems to me it was very hard, like a croquet ball - which, of course, is made of wood. Not that a new baseball is that much softer. As a match progresses, the ball is seldom replaced, so it tends to soften up, thus presumably the greater danger is in the early part of the match. I still suspect the incidence of deaths is too low to be statistically significant between the two sports. But both baseball and cricket have certainly had many "near misses". I recall one time when Minnesota Twins batter-runner Corey Koskie took a direct hit in the chest, not from a batted ball, thankfully, but from a hard throw by an infielder whose aim toward home plate was a tad off target. Koskie lay on the ground for a while, but was OK. A few years later, he suffered an on-field concussion and he was done. So perhaps a more meaningful question would be not so much about lethalness, but about life-changing injuries. Then you'd have a larger population to work with. Finding such data might not be so easy, though. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:31, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

It seems a lot more people outside of sport are killed or injured by baseball bats than cricket bats (and both beat out hockey sticks). Probably more to do with America than baseball, but the game is somewhat responsible for all the easily obtainable and highly efficient clubs. InedibleHulk (talk) 03:48, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

Don't forget the catchers with their suicide vests.... μηδείς (talk) 03:57, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

According to that PDF, baseball bats are also known as Black Death, or "one of the most devastating pandemics in human history." InedibleHulk (talk) 04:04, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

In baseball, I've seen far more spectators than players be injured by flying balls and bats. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:57, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

During a grade school lunch break, I was beaned by a foul ball from a game I wasn't even spectating. Still holds my personal record for biggest goose egg. InedibleHulk (talk) 21:42, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

That reminds me, I often see baseball players in fail videos blinded by the sun while looking up and crashing into something or someone. Cricket doesn't do that. InedibleHulk (talk) 06:39, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

This recent article lists a few cricket deaths. Another article from 2009 mentions a book, Death at the Ballpark: A Comprehensive Study of Game-Related Fatalities, 1862-2007, which details a number of baseball deaths. Hack (talk) 08:03, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

Here's the book's website. There's lots of information available already at the website, e.g. this list of fatalities. (Sorry, that list is only one of additional fatalities not listed in the book.) Contact Basemetal here 23:37, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

I'll just mention Ewen Chatfield, who didn't quite die after being struck on the head by a bouncer. His misfortune possibly resulted in the introduction of the cricket helmet. --TammyMoet (talk) 22:50, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

It continues. This guy, former captain of the Israeli cricket team, took up umpiring, and died after being hit by a ball just yesterday. HiLo48 (talk) 22:09, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

Not the first cricket umpire killed. Why not introduce helmets and chest pads for umpires like in baseball? Contact Basemetal here 23:37, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

Apparently because cricket injuries are accidents, while murder with a bat is a pandemic spread by the CIA to kill black people. μηδείς (talk) 00:26, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

Post-2001, the United States House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform fixed it so that we associate people getting cracked out of the park with this left-fielder instead of the real slugger. InedibleHulk (talk) 06:37, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

Just to add some balance, I found this unfortunate recent case of someone being murdered with a cricket bat, and then there's Oscar Pistorius, who is alleged to have attacked his girlfriend with one. Alansplodge (talk) 11:28, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

I don't see it in his article. Is that the same girlfriend he shot to death? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:22, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

An attack by Pistorius on the toilet door using a cricket bat was an important part of the trial. I don't remember any allegations that he hit Steenkamp with it. --Dweller (talk) 14:36, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

We have an article, Comparison_of_baseball_and_cricket#Bowling.2Fpitching, which has some relevant points on this subject.

For one thing, in baseball, "Deliberately hitting a batter is fairly uncommon, however, chiefly because it is punished severely". In cricket, a fast bowler often aims at the batsman with a bouncer, and it's not unusual to see him hit anywhere above the waist, including on the head.

Also, from the same article, "the ball in cricket is harder and heavier in weight. The legal weight for the ball in baseball must weigh between 5 to 5.25 ounces (142 to 149 g). Whereas, the ball in cricket must weigh between 5.5 to 5.8 ounces (156 to 164 g)."

Finally, the fact that the ball is pitched in cricket, makes its course less predictable, especially when the pitch deteriorates - although the days of "sticky dog"s in the professional game are long gone.

All told, it's actually surprising there haven't been more serious injuries in cricket. Some old timers blame the increased incidence of injuries on improvements in protective kit, which may seem contradictory, but it's led to batsmen being less afraid to take on the ball - Hughes, for example, was killed when playing an attacking stroke, not cowering in defence. --Dweller (talk) 14:34, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

As an indication of how the Phil Hughes death has rocked the sporting world, his funeral yesterday (my time) in Macksville, a town of a little over 2,500 people, which was attended by well over 5,000 people including many prominent non-cricketing sportspeople, was covered in full (2 hours all up) and without interruption by 4 of the 5 main television networks here. It was shown on public screens at major cricket venues all around the country. The only time I can remember a similar response was the funeral of Princess Diana. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 19:22, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

It was reported at length in the BBC News here too. Alansplodge (talk) 16:00, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

In case anyone's interested: What Dweller described in his last paragraph is sometimes subsumed under risk compensation. ---Sluzzelin talk 20:29, 3 December 2014 (UTC)