Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Entertainment/2016 July 26
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July 26
editRe. Lyrics and song meanings
editAre lyrics a good enough source in themselves for referencing purported song meanings? I ask because the song for which I'd like to provide a reference ("I'm on the Lamb but I Ain't No Sheep" from Blue Öyster Cult's self-titled debut album) is pretty unambiguous in its meaning. The article states that the song is "about a fugitive pursued by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police"; the lyrics can be found here, and it's pretty clear what they mean. Would this be a suitable link to use as a reference?
Also, does anyone know where I can find references for other assertions being made in that subsection? I'd like to improve the article's quality, but I don't know where I could look. Kurtis (talk) 10:19, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
- No, lyrics themselves are not a source to interpret the meanings of lyrics. The lyrics are a primary source. They can only be used to cite the actual content of the lyrics themselves (i.e quotes). Reliable sources which themselves discuss the meaning of the lyrics would be a secondary source and are required in order for a Wikipedia article to itself discuss the meaning. --Jayron32 15:39, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
- Yeah, that's the party line. But WP:NORULES and WP:BOLD also apply. I say OP can feel free to improve the article however they wish, understanding that said improvements will likely last longer if they are supported by secondary RS. This is related to the perennial debates on deletionism vs. inclusionism: I personally would rather have primary cites for songs than no description of what they are about. In this case, I don't think OP is making any interpretations that are beyond the scope of understanding ordinary phrases in English. Here is a secondary source [1] discussing BOC lyrics, but honestly it's not that reliable, and I'm not terribly certain that there is a highly reliable interpretation of the lyrics of this song. We have articles on on the lamb, and Canadian Mounted Police, and IMO it's not that terrible if one of our editors uses their brain to describe 45 year old rock song. SemanticMantis (talk) 17:39, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
- By the way, the phrase is on the lam. Bored sheep herders whose wives don't meet their needs may be "on the lamb", but fugitives from the law are "on the lam". --Jayron32 17:52, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
- Yeah, that's the party line. But WP:NORULES and WP:BOLD also apply. I say OP can feel free to improve the article however they wish, understanding that said improvements will likely last longer if they are supported by secondary RS. This is related to the perennial debates on deletionism vs. inclusionism: I personally would rather have primary cites for songs than no description of what they are about. In this case, I don't think OP is making any interpretations that are beyond the scope of understanding ordinary phrases in English. Here is a secondary source [1] discussing BOC lyrics, but honestly it's not that reliable, and I'm not terribly certain that there is a highly reliable interpretation of the lyrics of this song. We have articles on on the lamb, and Canadian Mounted Police, and IMO it's not that terrible if one of our editors uses their brain to describe 45 year old rock song. SemanticMantis (talk) 17:39, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
- "On the lam(b) but ain't no sheep" would be a play on words. What it specifically refers to, if it's not made plain in the lyrics, would require a secondary source. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 18:10, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
- Yeah, I think it is a bit of wordplay, but that's not really necessary to get in to for a basic description of the what the song is about. "On the lamb" is a common (mis)spelling of "on the lam", it is the spelling used in the title of the song, and it is also popular enough that we have a redirect. I personally don't think it is at all a stretch to say the song is about a person who is a fugitive from the RCMP, and in this specific case, I'd invoke Wikipedia:You_don't_need_to_cite_that_the_sky_is_blue. Jayron is of course correct in his statement of best practices and official policy, but I also wanted to share an alternative perspective. SemanticMantis (talk) 18:31, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
- I don't know the song. Does it say anything specificially about a fugitive or the Mounties? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 18:33, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
- The lyrics start by mentioning the Mounties, but it's not at all clear that it's about some specific fugitive, nor even that it's literally about the Mounties. I especially like where they mark one section "incomprehensible". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 18:54, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
- I don't know the song. Does it say anything specificially about a fugitive or the Mounties? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 18:33, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
- Yeah, I think it is a bit of wordplay, but that's not really necessary to get in to for a basic description of the what the song is about. "On the lamb" is a common (mis)spelling of "on the lam", it is the spelling used in the title of the song, and it is also popular enough that we have a redirect. I personally don't think it is at all a stretch to say the song is about a person who is a fugitive from the RCMP, and in this specific case, I'd invoke Wikipedia:You_don't_need_to_cite_that_the_sky_is_blue. Jayron is of course correct in his statement of best practices and official policy, but I also wanted to share an alternative perspective. SemanticMantis (talk) 18:31, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
- "On the lam(b) but ain't no sheep" would be a play on words. What it specifically refers to, if it's not made plain in the lyrics, would require a secondary source. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 18:10, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
- That was my thinking as well - lyrics seem to me as a primary source. The only problem is that I can't really find any decent second-party sources to add as references for the article, which is frustrating. Kurtis (talk) 01:06, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
- Yeah, I had a brief look too, and that blog post was about the best I could find. If you really want to do it right, you can probably find some stuff in real-paper books (possibly using google books). For example the Encyclopedia of Heavy metal tells me that Sandy Pearlman or Richard Meltzer might have written about these songs/lyrics in some detail, so you could try that route. SemanticMantis (talk) 15:05, 27 July 2016 (UTC)