Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Entertainment/2018 January 9
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January 9
edit'Foreign' TV channels in Mainland China
editTelevision in China#Premium satellite television does have a list of some of foreign TV channels available to view in the Mainland China, but I don't think that's a complete list of such channels permitted by PRC government's SAPPRFT to be available there. For example, Hong Kong's TVB Jade and TVB Pearl are available in Guangdong Province on cable TV systems there, and (I heard that) channels like CNN International and Sky News are permitted on the condition that they are only available to hotels at certain level. But I can't find the list from the Mainland authority. JSH-alive/talk/cont/mail 10:48, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
Au pays où se fait la guerre
editAccording to WP, Henri Duparc's song "Au pays où se fait la guerre" on a poem by Théophile Gautier is all that remains of Duparc's opéra "Roussalka" which Duparc ended up destroying. What I don't understand is how an excerpt from an opera based on a poem by Alexander Pushkin can end up as a song on words by Théophile Gautier. Did Duparc just recycle music not words from his "Roussalka" in that song? Or did he originally include in his "Roussalka" this poem by Gautier even though the text was otherwise by Pushkin (translated to French of course)? Or yet some other explanation? Thanks, Basemetal 20:39, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
- I think most of the confusion can be cleared up with three words: "based", "poem" and "destroyed". First: the mythical tale "Rusalka" has been told in many different forms throughout folklore literature, music and other mediums. It has been set to poetry, music (opera), short story, art, etc. The Pushkin poem was just that: a poem; not an operatic libretto. It was the "basis" for which Duprac wrote a 3-Act opera: meaning, the story formed the outline, not the text. Second: since the score was "destroyed", it would seem that it may not be possible to know who contributed the text (libretto); but it obviously wasn't Pushkin since he died in 1837 and Duparc was born in 1848. Third: the song "Au pays où se fait la guerre" was written in 1869-70 with text by Théophile Gautier; some 9 to 15 years prior to the opera being written. Obviously, it was incorporated into the opera by the composer; much like other composers use text, poems, music from different sources in separate works: i.e. Bizet using the song "El Arreglito" by Spanish composer Sebastián Yradier for the Habanera in Carmen, Puccini using the melody from the Star Spangled Banner, or John Corigliano referencing Mozart in The Ghosts of Versailles. Maineartists (talk) 03:31, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
- Thank you for these common sense answers. I find the wording in WP (here) suggests the reverse but a look at the dates should have clarified that it wasn't music from the opera that was re-used in the song but the other way around. Thanks for pointing that out. On the other hand I don't know what the basis is for the analogy you are making with the use of the Habanera in Carmen, of the Star Spangled Banner in Madama Butterfly, etc., namely that Duparc simply recycled the tune of the song in his opera (albeit in this case his own tune) as happened in those other cases. It might have been more than that (note that the song was orchestrated a few years before the opera) and he might have re-used harmony, orchestration (possibly of the orchestrated version) and, yes, maybe even text. So that brings me back to the question of the text: there still remains the question of the text of the song as used in the opera and, in particular, if they were identical. On the basis of what I find in WP I don't see any way of settling that question. If you or anyone else has any idea, that would be much appreciated. That two titles are given for the song according to WP (the other one being Absence apparently) still does not necessarily imply to me that one was the title of the published song and the other was the title of the song as used in the opera (thus suggesting at least different texts) because WP seems to be saying that Absence was the original title of the separate song itself before it was used in the opera. Incidentally I didn't mean to imply that Duparc set Pushkin's text literally, but WP seems to imply that the link between Pushkin's poem and the text of the opera is deeper than they just happen to deal with the same folk tale or there wouldn't have been any point in mentioning Pushkin's poem at all. Basemetal 06:44, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
- As for the precise relationship between the Pushkin poem and the libretto, I can clear that up: nobody knows. --Antiquary (talk) 18:13, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
- Rats. I mean, thanks. But then, how is it that there's any information at all about what was in the lost opera, including that it re-used that song or the music of that song? Since that bit was added by editor Sparafucil who is still active I've just pinged him. Hopefully he or she can provide some clarification here. Basemetal 22:12, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
- Can't help you with that, except that presumably whatever we know about this opera comes from what Duparc himself wrote about it. Letters? Memoirs?
However I have just found a book which says the song was "originally entitled Absence and intended for the opera Roussalka; Gautier; from La Comédie de la mort; 1869-1870". That certainly makes it sound like it was from the start an integral part of the opera, which would mean that the dates given in our Henri Duparc article must be wrong. La Comédie de la mort, by the way, is just the poetry collection by Gautier that includes the poem. --Antiquary (talk) 11:57, 11 January 2018 (UTC) - Well now, I think I'm going to have to row back on that conclusion since I can't actually find anything that suggests Roussalka was begun as early as 1869-70. Looks like "intended for the opera Roussalka" must mean that Duparc intended to incorporate his already written song "Absence/Au pays où se fait la guerre" into his new opera. In other words I'm agreeing with Maineartists. --Antiquary (talk) 13:20, 11 January 2018 (UTC)
- Can't help you with that, except that presumably whatever we know about this opera comes from what Duparc himself wrote about it. Letters? Memoirs?
- Rats. I mean, thanks. But then, how is it that there's any information at all about what was in the lost opera, including that it re-used that song or the music of that song? Since that bit was added by editor Sparafucil who is still active I've just pinged him. Hopefully he or she can provide some clarification here. Basemetal 22:12, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
- As for the precise relationship between the Pushkin poem and the libretto, I can clear that up: nobody knows. --Antiquary (talk) 18:13, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
- Thank you for these common sense answers. I find the wording in WP (here) suggests the reverse but a look at the dates should have clarified that it wasn't music from the opera that was re-used in the song but the other way around. Thanks for pointing that out. On the other hand I don't know what the basis is for the analogy you are making with the use of the Habanera in Carmen, of the Star Spangled Banner in Madama Butterfly, etc., namely that Duparc simply recycled the tune of the song in his opera (albeit in this case his own tune) as happened in those other cases. It might have been more than that (note that the song was orchestrated a few years before the opera) and he might have re-used harmony, orchestration (possibly of the orchestrated version) and, yes, maybe even text. So that brings me back to the question of the text: there still remains the question of the text of the song as used in the opera and, in particular, if they were identical. On the basis of what I find in WP I don't see any way of settling that question. If you or anyone else has any idea, that would be much appreciated. That two titles are given for the song according to WP (the other one being Absence apparently) still does not necessarily imply to me that one was the title of the published song and the other was the title of the song as used in the opera (thus suggesting at least different texts) because WP seems to be saying that Absence was the original title of the separate song itself before it was used in the opera. Incidentally I didn't mean to imply that Duparc set Pushkin's text literally, but WP seems to imply that the link between Pushkin's poem and the text of the opera is deeper than they just happen to deal with the same folk tale or there wouldn't have been any point in mentioning Pushkin's poem at all. Basemetal 06:44, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
I'm all in favor of double checking, having merely passed on IMSLP's data; "destroyed, except for..." doesn't seem to take account of Danse lente and one should of course be cautious about assuming the title is all that changed. NG gives much the same info but adds question marks to the dates. Btw, Gautier's Absence seems to refer to "Reviens, reviens..." Sparafucil (talk) 00:45, 13 January 2018 (UTC)