Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Entertainment/2020 August 19
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August 19
editAgatha Christie adaptation, something about Gondoliers
editHi all, does anyone know of any Agatha Christie adaptation whose name in German is something to do with gondoliers? Red Fiona (talk) 11:26, 19 August 2020 (UTC)
- The list of Christie adaptations in the German Wikipedia [1] isn't throwing up anything. --Viennese Waltz 12:13, 19 August 2020 (UTC)
- This is a very long shot, but the German title of Nicolas Roeg's film Don't Look Now is Wenn die Gondeln Trauer tragen ("When the gondolas wear/are mourning", just another example of bad German titles for English language films, it's even mentioned on several sites on ridiculous German titles, I could list dozens, one of my pet peeves, but I won't). The author of the short story is Daphne du Maurier, not Agatha Christie, but I thought I'd mention it anyway. ---Sluzzelin talk 15:17, 19 August 2020 (UTC)
- Thank you both. I suspect that Sluzzelin is right, and my mother's memory is wonky. Red Fiona (talk) 16:50, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
- By the way, Italian translations of film titles can be fun too. The Italian title for the same film is A Venezia... un dicembre shocking ("In Venice... one shocking December"—it's hard to convey how silly the borrowed term "shocking" sounds here). ---Sluzzelin talk 17:21, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
Name of C-E♭-G-A chord
editIt's very confusing that this chord is called a "minor 6th" chord because a minor 6th is C-A♭. Why can't we call it a "supertonic 6th chord" the same way G-B-D-F is a "dominant 7th chord"?? It's the 6th chord built on the supertonic (in this case the supertonic of the key of B♭ major.) It would be less confusing if we called this chord a supertonic 6th chord, wouldn't it?? Georgia guy (talk) 23:44, 19 August 2020 (UTC)
- It's not a C (minor 6). It's a (C minor) 6. A Cm chord is C-E♭-G. Since this has an added 6th (A on a C scale), this is a Cm6. A C major chord (CEG) with an added A♭ is called a C♭6 (Cee Flat 6). A C minor chord (C-E♭-G) with an added A♭ is a Cm♭6. In chord notation, usually the "minor" or "major" part almost always refers to the third only, and other conventions determine how extensions are notated, but you usually don't use minor or major when describing an extension, you use flat or sharp. The one exception I can think of is the "7", which unadorned means the "minor seventh interval" and if you want the major seventh interval, you write "maj7". But usually, when I see extensions other than the 7, always assume that "m" or "minor" refers to the minor 3, and that you use flat or sharp to modify the (normal) other notes. --Jayron32 02:40, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
- Also, a dominant 7th chord is only a dominant 7th if it is playing that role according to functional harmony. G-B-D-F is just a "G7" chord. It would only be called a "dominant" 7th in the key of C, because the dominant chord (the V chord) plays a specific role in that key, that of leading the listener back to the tonic chord (C). You can use a G7 chord in any number of musical contexts, and if it isn't acting as the dominant chord, you don't call it a dominant chord. Also, dominant chords don't have to be 7. Many songs just use a G chord without the 7th interval as a dominant (just GBD). It's a slightly weaker resolution because the dominant 7th has 2 leading tones (the F in the G7 is only a half step from the E in a C chord, so acts as an extra leading tone), but it's still dominant. The word "dominant" has nothing to do with the chord itself, it isn't part of the name of the chord, it's an extra name describing it's function in the harmony of the song. --Jayron32 02:53, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
- I just realized that the Wikipedia article on the dominant seventh chord does make it seem like the "dominant" part of the name is integral to it; that's not the way I learned it, however, and I suspect there's some differences over that. I still stand by the idea that the dominant part comes from the function in context and not the notes themselves, but it does seem from, for example here, that the major-minor seventh is so ubiquitous in basically only being used in dominant function that the "dominant" part of the name has stuck to it. For example, in nearly every song where you see it, anything that putatively looks like a I7 is usually analyzed instead as a secondary dominant, usually as V7/IV. So, in a song written in the key of C, the chord C7 would not be analyzed as a I7 chord, but as the V7/IV or secondary dominant of F, with the F being now the "tonicized chord". In most cases, this C7 chord will resolve to an F, and the progression C-C7-F-G-C is common enough, being analyzed as I-V7/IV-IV-V-I. The seven chord, with its tritone (i.e. B-F on a G7) is unstable, and it resolves very nicely, because of the double leading tones, to C. Thus, whenever you see a 7 chord like this, you usually see that kind of resolution (except when you don't, because the songwriter is getting cheeky, or is deliberately NOT resolving it to it's tonicized chord). --Jayron32 10:40, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
- Also also (as I realize I'm rambling on to tangent after tangent), one of the best music theory YouTube channels out there is called "12tone", the channel has a fun, easy to follow style and you pick up a LOT of good theory in an enjoyable way as the narrator/animator analyzes popular songs. It's a good watch. I'd start with his "Understanding..." series, where he analyzes popular songs, but he also has series on more esoteric aspects of music theory, especially weird analyses and alternate types of music theories than the standard functional harmony theory. He also has a good series on the building blocks of music theory. --Jayron32 10:46, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
- I'm sure that C♭6 is a chord built on C♭. Its notes are C♭-E♭-G♭-A♭. This clearly isn't the chord you're calling C♭. Georgia guy (talk) 13:49, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
- If there's ambiguity in the notation, you would use something like Cb6 or C(♭6). There's no international authority on these things, just conventions that have built up over time. Music theory is a language, and with any language there are bound to be ambiguities, and differences in how it is used (dialects, etc.) So yes, you are correct that C♭6 is probably a C♭ with an added 6. What I should have wrote was something like C(♭6) which made it clear that the added tone was a ♭6. My bad. However, the minor vs. flat thing is real; in chord symbols "m" is almost universally the minor third, so Cm6 is read as a C-minor chord with an added 6th. --Jayron32 15:26, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
- I'm sure that C♭6 is a chord built on C♭. Its notes are C♭-E♭-G♭-A♭. This clearly isn't the chord you're calling C♭. Georgia guy (talk) 13:49, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
- Also also (as I realize I'm rambling on to tangent after tangent), one of the best music theory YouTube channels out there is called "12tone", the channel has a fun, easy to follow style and you pick up a LOT of good theory in an enjoyable way as the narrator/animator analyzes popular songs. It's a good watch. I'd start with his "Understanding..." series, where he analyzes popular songs, but he also has series on more esoteric aspects of music theory, especially weird analyses and alternate types of music theories than the standard functional harmony theory. He also has a good series on the building blocks of music theory. --Jayron32 10:46, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
- I just realized that the Wikipedia article on the dominant seventh chord does make it seem like the "dominant" part of the name is integral to it; that's not the way I learned it, however, and I suspect there's some differences over that. I still stand by the idea that the dominant part comes from the function in context and not the notes themselves, but it does seem from, for example here, that the major-minor seventh is so ubiquitous in basically only being used in dominant function that the "dominant" part of the name has stuck to it. For example, in nearly every song where you see it, anything that putatively looks like a I7 is usually analyzed instead as a secondary dominant, usually as V7/IV. So, in a song written in the key of C, the chord C7 would not be analyzed as a I7 chord, but as the V7/IV or secondary dominant of F, with the F being now the "tonicized chord". In most cases, this C7 chord will resolve to an F, and the progression C-C7-F-G-C is common enough, being analyzed as I-V7/IV-IV-V-I. The seven chord, with its tritone (i.e. B-F on a G7) is unstable, and it resolves very nicely, because of the double leading tones, to C. Thus, whenever you see a 7 chord like this, you usually see that kind of resolution (except when you don't, because the songwriter is getting cheeky, or is deliberately NOT resolving it to it's tonicized chord). --Jayron32 10:40, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
- Also, a dominant 7th chord is only a dominant 7th if it is playing that role according to functional harmony. G-B-D-F is just a "G7" chord. It would only be called a "dominant" 7th in the key of C, because the dominant chord (the V chord) plays a specific role in that key, that of leading the listener back to the tonic chord (C). You can use a G7 chord in any number of musical contexts, and if it isn't acting as the dominant chord, you don't call it a dominant chord. Also, dominant chords don't have to be 7. Many songs just use a G chord without the 7th interval as a dominant (just GBD). It's a slightly weaker resolution because the dominant 7th has 2 leading tones (the F in the G7 is only a half step from the E in a C chord, so acts as an extra leading tone), but it's still dominant. The word "dominant" has nothing to do with the chord itself, it isn't part of the name of the chord, it's an extra name describing it's function in the harmony of the song. --Jayron32 02:53, 20 August 2020 (UTC)