Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2007 April 23

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April 23

History of Abortion

Does anyone know when and where the first abortions were performed?

-Anonymous —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.134.73.15 (talk) 00:05, 23 April 2007 (UTC).

The first recorded evidence of induced abortion dates back the the sixth century BC in China, though the practice is surely far older than that. Have a look over the History of abortion. Clio the Muse 00:12, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Thank YOu

-anonymous

M. Bade (or perhaps Bave), artist

I am trying to identify an artist who did pen-and-ink sketches of Middle-East or north-African subjects (camels, deserts, robes and the like), at least one of which is a lithograph. The artist is likely Dutch, from the period 1850 to 1950, but most probably from a period right around the turn of the century (1900 or so). The surname might also be "Baue". I have checked all these variations on Google, Artprice and Sotheby's. He/she is not famous under any of these names. Any ideas out there amongst the cognoscenti? Bielle 00:14, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Ask Wikipedia in the Netherlands, perhaps with an example of an image. I'm sure some of them speak English. I have only the ideas like "Bauer" (farmer) or "Bader" in Germany they are very wellknown as surname.

Another way is to search with google pictures for the same image in google and to read there the informations ... Or to write to a gallery or an art dealer ...

-- jlorenz1 14:26, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the suggestions, Jlorenz. The name definitely is only 4 letters, the last of which is an "e". I have a gallery doing a search. I haven't tried either the image search, or Wiki Netherlands, but will do so. Thanks again. Bielle 18:03, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Barack Obama was not assimilated

While reading the Jeri Ryan (Seven of Nine) article, I learned that her husband was forced to turn down the Republican nomination for the Senate seat won by Obama because of salacious details about their divorce. Was Jack Ryan a serious threat to Obama? Clarityfiend 04:55, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

• I found a poll from May 31, 2004 in the Chicago Tribune in which Obama led Ryan by a 52%-30% margin. This was at a time when the press was seeking to have the Ryan divorce files unsealed but the exact allegations had not yet been revealed. So Ryan would have been facing an uphill battle even before the details came out. --Metropolitan90 08:12, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

• Additionally, the salacious details from the Ryan divorce were bad, but they weren't that bad. Despite what some people (where and in what profession, I won't say), marital irregularities don't decide elections these days, except in the most rural districts, if even there. Furthermore, the details were not reducible to an easy to digest charge, and therefore they didn't really end up as slogan-level dirt. I'm sure that they hurt Ryan with some of the fundamentalist voters, but I would suspect many/most of them voted Republican anyway and would have voted for him over Obama. I.e. the people likely to be driven away by the scandal are the same ones likely to avoid voting for Obama under any circumstance. Utgard Loki 12:31, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

For what it's worth, Obama won 70% of the vote in 2004, whereas Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry only captured 54% of the vote in the state of Illinois. I don't know what conclusions you might draw from this, but I'm sure there are some. Also, the 27% of the vote captured by Obama's opponent, Alan Keyes, probably represents the segment of the population (in Illinois) that will vote regardless of any other issues. Carom 14:48, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

what are the largest cities in britain?

arrange them in descending order, please. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 166.121.36.12 (talk) 07:16, 23 April 2007 (UTC).

Well, here are the two hundred most populous cities, towns and districts, arranged in descending order, for you to get your teeth into [1]. Clio the Muse 07:23, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

sorry that list is surely rubbish (it doesn't seem very official). There seems to be quite a bizarre way of dictating when some cities start and finish. First of all, Fife isn't a city, its a region (and not a very populated one at that). Only assuming a very minimal definition of manchester does it have 400,000 people (Manchester city council is under the impression that greater manchester has 3 million people living there). On the other hand, you have to be draw borders fairly generously to conclude that edinburgh has 448,00. If you don't believe me then go there youself, if manchester is smaller that edinburgh my whole world will be turned upside down!87.194.21.177 19:16, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

It is actually a list of cities and districts. I make no comment on the accuracy or otherwise of the figures supplied. However, here are some additional details, taken from the 2001 census, which would seem to confirm these numbers [2]. Clio the Muse 19:59, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Political map of England (End of 17th century/1683) and map with the route between Newmarket and London (Rye House Plot)

like this

Hallo, I've some difficulties to find a political map of England (17th century) and a map with the route between Newmarket and London (Rye House Plot). Does something exists in Wikipedia or in the Internet (as template)? Thanks -- jlorenz1 09:17, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Hello, Johannes. I suppose it depends how serious you want to be about this. I myself know of no free templates you could use. There are good historic maps available, as you will see if you look here [3], though at a cost! Do you have access to a decent research library? If so, it is likley to have a section specialising in cartography, which may allow the use of historic maps for a reasonable fee. But in terms of 'political' geography, the area of England in question is actually fairly compact. Rumbold's Rye House was at Hoddesdon in Hertfordshire, on the main road to Cambridge, a fairly short distance to the north of London. You could conceivably draw your own sketch map to illustrate the point you are making. Incidentally, do be careful of the Wikipedia article on the Rye House Plot, which, to say the very least, is quite dreadful! Amongst other things it implicates Shaftesbury, although he had died some three months before the planned assassination attempt! Clio the Muse 11:08, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Hi Clio the Muse, I'm looking more for a political map with colours and frontiers between England, Scotland, Ireland and perhaps the last part of England on the european continent, because most germans have no idea of England in this time. I know, Shaftesbury have made a first try and canceled it. They other have continued to plan their plot later. A greater pronblem for me is Gregorian calendar and the time difference between England and Europe. At the time I ignore it so much as I can. -- jlorenz1 13:59, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks to all. It was a help. There is only one question about Ireland, the british country in Ireland was larger as today.;-) I've found a map of 1650 (Cromwell) and a map fo 1801. Both shows differetn frontiers. So there were the frontiers in Ireland in 1683? -- jlorenz1 12:53, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

It was all under English control, Johannes. Clio the Muse 13:15, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Unless I misremember badly, England had by this point long since lost all holdings on the continent, and the border with Ireland was the Irish sea. That leaves you with the Scottish border, the islands and the stupid anomalies: Man, Berwick and the Channel Islands were all, I think, separate from England though under the English crown, and there may have been others. Hope that helps Algebraist 17:23, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

To sum up Algebraist's comment, a political map of England's external borders in 1683 would be the same as a map of England and Wales today, except that Berwick was not formally part of England (whereas Wales had formally been merged with England). The only land border would have been the present Scottish border, with a slight diversion to the south of Berwick. The Channel Islands and the Isle of Man were technically not part of England. (However, the Channel Islands (Jersey and Guernsey), Man, Scotland, and Ireland were part of a personal union with England. England's monarch was also the monarch of these territories.) Marco polo 17:45, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

There were some alterations to the England/Wales border in the 1970s, and a few trivially small changes to the Scotland/England border circa the Union - some areas around Carlisle, IIRC. Other than that, nationally speaking the same as today. Internal boundaries would be quite different, though. Shimgray | talk | 17:52, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

As others have said, Johannes, the political map of England in the seventeenth century was, by and large, as it is at the present time. The town of Calais, the last possession from the Hundred Year's War, had been lost in 1558, during the reign of Mary I. In 1658 Oliver Cromwell, in alliance with the French, had gained the port of Dunkirk from the Spanish; but this was sold to Louis XIV in 1662 early in the reign of Charles II, well before the events of 1683. So, basically any outline map will satisfy your needs, with perhaps a county map of Hertfordshire to indicate the precise location of the Rye House, the haunt of ferocious old 'Hannibal' Rumbold. On the difference between the Julian and Gregorian calendars, by the seventeenth century England was running ten days behind most of Continental Europe. Clio the Muse 18:12, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Is this map, espcially Ireland(green) correct? (it is only sketch!)

England in 1683

-- jlorenz1 23:38, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

P.S. I have taken the information of a history atlas

Johannes, this green area does not signify any form of political separation between the west of Ireland and the rest of the island. It represents the lands left to the Catholics, chiefly in Connacht, after the Cromwellian conquest and the subsequent Act for the Settlement of Ireland, passed by the English Parliament in 1652. By the terms of this act all Catholic landowners were ordered to leave for the west before 1 May 1654, or face the death penalty, from whence comes the expression To Hell or to Connaught. One other small point: your map seems to suggest that the Isle of Man-coloured yellow-was politically part of Scotland; it was not, nor had it been since the fourteenth century. Clio the Muse 23:55, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

I will open a new thread. I want to show you my source. The Isle of Man is now "english". I looked up in Encarta. The Kingdom was under the influence of England at that time. -- jlorenz1 11:39, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

what are the largest navies in the world

in terms of tonnage per head of population? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Amazon Priest (talk • contribs) 10:12, 23 April 2007 (UTC).

Hello, Amazon Priest. I didn't find a list with tonnages per capita, but Nationmaster lists Navy personnel (per capita) by country. Number one is Taiwan with 2.97 naval staff members per 1,000 people. Wikipedia has Table_of_current_naval_strengths, including displacement, but for some reason it hasn't gone beyond the letter "C" (or Cameroon) yet. ---Sluzzelin talk 11:04, 23 April 2007 (UTC) I fixed the link. ---Sluzzelin talk 11:16, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Vigilant Canadian naval intelligence agents must have "taken care" of the editor. (bwahahahaha) Clarityfiend 17:20, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Nominations in French presidential election

Candidates must obtain signatures from 500 elected officials in order to stand in the French presidential election:

1. How many eligible elected officials are there in France?
2. How many candidates can each official sign for?

thanks58.28.143.17 11:21, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

According to President of the French Republic, approximately 45,000 officals (mostly mayors) are eligible. Can't find anything on the other question. Algebraist 17:07, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

There are approximately 36000 communes, thus 36000 mayors. The median number of inhabitants is about 375, so most communes really are small villages. Thus, one may safely say this method overrepresents the concerns of officials of rural areas.

One single official may present only one candidate (see decree 2001-213 article 6). David.Monniaux 17:44, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

weapon hoards

I seem to remember various weapon hordes being mentioned in norse sagas - but which ones? Quotes from the stories would help as well. Google doesn't even seem to acknowledge their existence.83.100.251.85 14:28, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

What do you mean by "weapon hordes?" Do you mean armories? There is a famous example of one of those in Volssunsaga and in The Battle of Brunansburgh. If you don't, please specify. Utgard Loki 15:19, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

It might include armories - but I was thinking of hordes of weapons guarded by a monster (dragon, troll, giant etc) - that would have no use for them - rather than an armoury as found in a castle.83.100.251.85 18:55, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I thought I knew most of the sagas, but I cannot recall the specific kind of reference you have in mind. All I can think of is the horde of the dragon, Fafnir, in chapter nineteen of the Völsunga Saga, which contains some weaponry, alongside the gold. After killing the the great worm, Sigurd enters his lair: Then Sigurd ate some of Fafnir's heart, and the remnant he kept. Then he lept on his horse and rode along the trail of the worm Fafnir, and so right into his abiding place; and he found it open, and beheld all the doors and the gear of them that were wrought of iron; and it was dug down deep into the earth: there found Sigurd gold exceeding plenteous, and the sword Rotti, and hence took the Helm of Awe, and the gold Byrny, and many things fair and good. So much gold he found there, that he thought verily that scarce might two horses, or three belike, bear it hence. So he took all the gold and laid it in two great chests, and set them on the horse Grani, and took the reins of him, but nowise will he stir, neither will he abide smiting. Then Sigurd knows the mind of the horse, and leaps on the back of him, and smites and spurs into him, and off the horse goes even as if he were unladen.

In the Hervarar Saga, the dwarfs Davalin and Durin forge the magic sword, Tyrfing. In the Prose Edda the dwarf Eitri forges Mjolnir, the great hammer of Thor, as the sons of Ivaldi create Gungnir, the spear of Odin. And that is as much as I can drag up from memory! Clio the Muse 19:53, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Early, early, early, when we are getting the family history of the Volsungs, we have a patriarch who is being betrayed by his kinsman. He and his son go to the armory, and the enemies try to burn them out. That's what I was referring to. Similarly, in Battle of Brunaunsburgh, there are the "out buildings" where the visitors are put, and the armories were nearer to the main complex, so the fighting surrounding those buildings was strategic. Now, it's possible that I'm confusing the Volsungssaga, as I read three sagas in a row for fun, and they can run together somewhat (except for Njal's which is unmistakable), but I'm fairly sure. Utgard Loki 12:36, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

I remember no gold in the story I was thinking of - the story was set in denmark/sweden - (with travel between) - there may have been a 'witch' (sorceress?) in it. (Or perhaps I remembered wrong)83.100.251.85 20:35, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I meant "weapon hoards" by the way - not sure if that has confused somebody. Spelling mistake.83.100.251.85 20:43, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I've had a really good look, 83.100, confining myself largely to the Eddas, which deal more mythological themes than the more 'historically based' Sagas, but I still can not find no trace of the trolls' 'weapons of mass destruction' (This seems to remind me of something, I forget what.). You have several sorceresses you might choose from, the most notable of whom are Groa, Borghild, and Grimhild. Do any of these sound familiar? Clio the Muse 00:09, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

I think the trolls' weapon of mass destruction is called "Wikipedia". :) JackofOz 00:13, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Mjolnir is flying in your direction, Jack. Please duck! Clio the Muse 00:18, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

What about Beowulf, he uses a sword he finds in her lair to kill Grendel's mother, so there must have been some kind of hoard. Is her being female making you think of a witch? And there is travel as Beowulf travels to Denmark to fight Grendel?137.138.46.155 12:45, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

assess students performance by formal n communicative test how?

[email address deleted] —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 202.125.143.65 (talk) 18:15, 23 April 2007 (UTC).

See our article on assessment. A formal assessment is usually a written examination or paper. Conceivably it could be an oral examination, in which the student is required to answer questions posed by an examiner. Any of these would be "communicative". As to how to assess students' performance by such a means, a paper should respond to a question whose answer would require the student to demonstrate a command of the course material. In the case of an oral or written examination, there could be multiple questions on the course material. The examiner or instructor would assess a student's performance by determining the degree to which his or her answers demonstrate command of the course material. An examiner or instructor might use a rubric to evaluate a student's performance. Marco polo 00:32, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Research Question

Where would I find primary sources for a project about the Trail of Tears? Does anyone have some general guidance? Thanks. 69.116.169.171 20:15, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

You might contact the people at Trail of Tears National Historic Trail, or the people of the Cherokee Nation or of the Cherokee Nation Eastern Band. Corvus cornix 20:30, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I think the words of Dragging Canoe were put up on the web somewhere. I think he was Creek. Geogre 21:31, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

N.B. Our article is on the first of two historically known persons by that name. Geogre 21:33, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Dragging Canoe was Cherokee, and died before the Trail of Tears. There's a lot of info about him at Chickamauga Wars. Not sure what words of his are relevant to the Trail of Tears though. Pfly 00:20, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Per my note: there are two historical Dragging Canoes. One is the one you're referring to. The later one left primary documentation of his experience of the Trail of Tears. He survived it and discussed its horror. His words are engraved at the Trail of Tears museum in Tennessee, but those are from his longer account. Geogre 01:27, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Oh sorry, I misunderstood your words. Pfly 03:48, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

A primary source, apparently passed down by word of mouth, can be found here. You can find other such accounts in Theda Perdue's The Cherokee Removal: A Brief History with Documents, which you can view here, or Vicki Rozema's Voices from the Trail of Tears, which you can view here. Marco polo 00:44, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, Theda Perdue's Cherokee Removal is the best place to start. Wareh 13:25, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Looks like some good choices above, but keep in mind that one of the links (this one) is not a "primary source". Rather, it's an artistic rendering of a family story; while it may accurately convey the emotional truth of the Trail, it's second- or third-hand at best, and some details (the presence of snow and an armed escort, both uncommon on the Trail) suggest that artistic license may be involved. Be wary of accounts written long after the fact, because they can contain those kind of embellishments. One such account by a U.S. soldier is here. Although often quoted as accurate, John Ehle writes in his book Trail of Tears that the account is full of "exaggerations and factual errors."

And also keep in mind that, at any given moment, the Wikipedia article on the Trail of Tears is likely inaccurate. I've given up trying to correct the common misconception that the Cherokee Trail of Tears happened during Andrew Jackson's presidency. This and other errors are frequently introduced into the article. —Kevin Myers 14:35, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

England in 1683/Frontiers in Ireland

I'll show the source of my German History Atlas only for two days (Copyright) and my newest sketch of England at that time. If you follow my source, you'll see, that after the last campaign of Oliver Cromwell 1653, for the Irish remained only the green part ... (I've already uploaded a new version of my sketch, but it will take some time to syncronize between wikipedia servers (You'll see the new version, if you click on it)-- jlorenz1 11:59, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

source deleted

England in 1683(own sketch of map)

One minor correction, Johannes: Cromwell campaigned in Ireland from August 1649 to May 1650, when he left to lead an offensive against the Scottish royalists. Although the war in Ireland continued into 1652, initially under the leadership of Henry Ireton, Cromwell never returned. As I have said above, the green part on your map only refers to the part of the island left to Catholic Irish landowners-not the Irish people in total-after the Act for the Settlement of Ireland. The island as a whole remained under the political control of England. Clio the Muse 16:25, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

So I should give whole Ireland the colour of England? [http://images.nationmaster.com/images/motw/historical/ward_1912/ireland_1653.jpg Here) I've found a historical map of the Settlement of Ireland of 1653 -- jlorenz1 17:51, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

I would say yes, just to indicate that there was no political border, as such. One small caveat, though: do not refer to Ireland as part of England! It still existed in its own right, conquered and colonised as it was. Clio the Muse 18:07, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

It depends on what you are trying to show. If you want to show lands possessed by England (and Wales, which was united with England), you would use the same color for England (including Wales) and for England's dependencies: Ireland, Man, Berwick, and the Channel Islands. You might also use that color for Scotland, which was part of a personal union with England, though not strictly a dependency of England. However, if your goal is to show the area of England itself, you would use that color only for England (including Wales but not Berwick). Whatever you do, all of Ireland should be a single color. Marco polo 20:10, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your entry. I plan for whole ireland a section lining lilac/green and the commentary: under english administration.a section lining lilac/a colour for Man and Berwick-upon-Tweed gets a circle in another colour. I'll represent the new version soon. Thanks -- jlorenz1 23:56, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Ireland was officially ruled by the English monarch from the 13th century, How ever they only got any type of control with Cromwell, and even after that it was only in 1801 that they official became the same country. so I would argue that the entire Island of Ireland should still be a different color

It is more accurate to say that the English regained full control of Ireland, lost in the rebellion of 1641, after Cromwell's campaign. Full control, as such, had been established during the reign of Elizabeth I and James I, especially after the Battle of Kinsale brought victory in the Nine Years War, and the Flight of the Earls opened up large parts of the north to a Protestant Plantation. Clio the Muse 23:28, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Palace in London of Charles II.?

Hallo, it wasn't the Buckingham Palace nor the Tower of London, but what and where was it? Thanks -- jlorenz1 14:59, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

It was the Palace of Whitehall. Clio the Muse 16:28, 25 April 2007 (UTC)