Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2008 June 6

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June 6

Why does Sikhism require men to have the last name Singh and women to have the last name Kaur to be equal?

I'm a Muslim that have interest in Sikhism. Is having the last name Singh or Kaur removes their caste or social status? Does it makes Sikhs equal? Jet (talk) 00:02, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Traditional legal practice that makes Sikh women equal to the men (same status). In the article Kaur, it explains that it's a compulsory middle or last name for women Sikhs as Singh is for men. It means "Princess" or "Lioness". Not a family name, but is "the final element of a compound personal name or as a last name". Hope this helps, Julia Rossi (talk) 02:21, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

There are many kinds of equality, but for practical purposes what this sharing of names seems to achieve is essentially a very public bond of shared interests. And although it runs against the teachings of the Sikh Gurus, many Sikhs are actually divided into the equivalent of castes. Xn4 14:12, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Book search

Not having much luck, so thought the infra-minded deskers might. Looking for a small book on arguments from the Talmud. It might have been called "Five (?) Arguments from the Talmud" (in English, about 10 years ago). At the time I couldn't afford to buy it so quickly flicked through it and now can't refind it on the net. Contents included setting out and explaining arguments from authority, tradition, scripture, precedent and I forget the other (unless it was only four). And if someone knows what that list is, would be helpful. Thanks, Julia Rossi (talk) 02:33, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Is this it? The Talmudic Argument: A Study in Talmudic Reasoning and Methodology has the dimension of 8.5 x 5.4 x 0.7 inches and was published in 1984. Not sure though since I'm unfamiliar with the field but I hope this will remind you of something.--Lenticel ^(talk) 03:48, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Lenticel, a good find – it's put me on a trail to some libraries here. Somewhere said it was orange, so I should add the other was creamy yellow, though the price is about right (~=>*hand above head*) – must be very obscure or limited release, Julia Rossi (talk) 05:28, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Native Americans

I need information on how the Native American's treat their elderly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.240.106.66 (talk) 08:04, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Do your own homework. You know, though, you might really want to know which nation you mean, and then which tribe you mean, as well as which period of history you're aiming at. Geogre (talk) 12:01, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Yep. Your question implies that they are a monolithic block, when in reality, there are many nations and tribes, thus many traditions and customs. Even the use of Native American is not universal and can be controversial. See Native American name controversy. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 19:17, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Links Between Secularism and Islam

Possible links ?

• Averroes was a major muslim philosopher who is said to be the pioneer of secular thought in Europe

• Islam (sunnism) is secular because it has no clerics
• Islam (submission) subjugates faith and reason.
• Islam has embraced multiculturalism because it is a network of clans and tribes
• Islam views itself as inherently democratic as being itself the Ummah.

See Turkey as well —Preceding unsigned comment added by Steelersfan7roe (talk • contribs) 18:06, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

69.157.232.25 (talk) 12:37, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

And your question is ... ? --ColinFine (talk) 18:29, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Some thoughts:

1. Secular does not mean having no clerics - it means "not connected with religion"; neither sunnism nor the rest of islam falls into that category.
2. Multicultural can be a relative term. If Islam embraces a number of cultures, all very similar to each other, but rejects cultures that are substantially different from that, then it is stretching the point to call it multicultural.
3. Embracing a number of states (Ummah) does not make something democratic, especially if the people in those states have no real say in how they are governed. DJ Clayworth (talk) 17:05, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Creating a fake history for a viral campaign

Hi there Im looking to create a fake history for our viral campaign. We are creating a dance event in the uk which is based on the venue being built on an old mental asylum. Permisson has been granted by the club for us to do this, we would like to add a wiki page explaining about this asylum and the projects that happened there. The Event is called the Advokate Project and is based on doctors testing on patients to create a super soldier in the world wars. The Doctors used many different methods including the paranormal. Unfortunatly this all went wrong and the patients became possessed, shortly after the asylum burnt down. We will say it was exactly 100 years ago, with there being paranormal activity escalating over the past few months within the venue. That is a brief overview of the story, but we are wondering if it is ok to put something like this up so people believe it. I understand that you look for factual information but this is for viral promotion and need to know what the rules are on this. Hpe you can help

Regards

Advokate project team —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.240.200.252 (talk) 13:13, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Are you asking if you can create a Wikipedia page containing a fake history of a building in order to support a dance event? If so, then the answer is no. The rules on using Wikipedia for promotion are "You're not allowed to do it". If you're asking whether you can create another website somewhere to support the event, feel free. DJ Clayworth (talk) 13:17, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

And I might add that (IMHO) viral marketing of this kind is extremely silly anyway. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 13:51, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Buy some server space, then buy up a bunch of cheap webdomains and have them point to different directories. Make two that look like serious academic pages, but make another look like a total crackpot conspiracy page. Make the first two talk about experiments and say that none of them were successful, make the last one say they were successful and the government is hiding it and etc. It'll be more believable if you subdivide the conspiracy into multiple pages like that, in my opinion, because in real life it would be obvious that something was up if the "official" pages talked about all sorts of crazy shit and nobody noticed. Get the web design right and it doesn't matter a whole lot what the content is. As a (very complicated) example of a "fake history" website, there's none better that I know of than Boilerplate. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 14:06, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

I would like to point out that as that post was made 4 years ago and nobody has heard of the movie... ... that said marketing campaign failed.

Thesis

What would be the thesis that diplomatic immunity should not be used to protest the diplomats when committing a crime? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.30.202.29 (talk) 14:44, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Have you read our comprehensive article on diplomatic immunity?--Shantavira|^{feed me} 16:15, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Christians

the christians in Lebanon and Syria are called the Maronite, but what about the christians in Palestine and Jordan? What are they called based on their beliefs? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.30.202.29 (talk) 14:45, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

• Some are called Roman Catholic, some are called Eastern Orthodox, depending on what they are. (One of my favorite couples is Palestinian; she's Catholic, he's Orthodox.) --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 15:19, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

The Maronite Church is one of a subset of Catholic churches (along with the Roman Catholic Church, the Armenian Catholic Church, the Byzantine Catholic Church -- I believe that there are 5 in total). Each church's Patriarch (or, "pope" in the case of the Roman church) traces his ecliastical ancenstry back to one of the original 12 apostles. Most Roman Catholics are taught that the Pope is the head of the Catholic Church. In fact, he is head of the Roman Catholic Church and considered "first among equals" among the five(?) Patriarchs. Wikiant (talk) 15:54, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

See Palestinian Christian for a good list of the many different denominations. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 15:56, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Not all Lebanese Christians are Maronite, though it is the largest group in that country. Christians in the Middle East belong to five broad groupings of churches:

1. Greek Orthodox (called Rūm Orthodox in Arabic) are the largest group, use Arabic (and some Greek) in their worship and are in communion with the Eastern Orthodox churches in Greece and beyond. There are Patriarchs of Antioch, Alexandria and Jerusalem.
2. Oriental Orthodox are a group of churches that broke with the Greek Orthodox in the fifth century. Each church uses its own language. They are the Syriac Orthodox Church (using Syriac), Armenian Apostolic Church (using Armenian) and the Coptic Orthodox Church (using Coptic). There are other Oriental Orthodox churches in Ethiopia and India.
3. Church of the East is a church that's strong in Iraq and uses Syriac as its liturgical language.
4. Catholic churches are numerous throughout the Middle East too. Some people are Roman Catholics, belonging to the Catholic mainstream (called Latīn in Arabic). However, there are semi-independent Catholic versions of all of the above churches: Greek Catholics, Syriac Catholics, Armenian Catholics, Coptic Catholics and Chaldean Catholics (from the Church of the East tradition). The Maronites kind-of fit in here too, as they are Catholics, but are a historically independent group using Syriac as their liturgical language.
5. Protestants are not so numerous in the Middle East, but there are some small churches.

I hope that makes things a little more clear. — Gareth Hughes (talk) 16:59, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Ph.D. thesis at a trade press?

I'm still some time off from finishing my Ph.D. thesis in History but I think it's probably a topic of sufficient general interest that there would be a chance that a trade press (like Knopf or FSG or Norton) would want to pick it up (and I write clearly enough and without excessive jargon for the transition to not be too painful). But I'm wondering if that would be perceived as a bad thing by prospective academic faculty hiring committees. Obviously the audience for both types of presses is different, and that would naturally necessitate being written a bit differently, but let's assume all other things being equal, and no intellectual rigor has suffered from being turned into a trade book, would it be terribly horrible to one's potential academic career to do such a thing? Am I totally wrong in assuming that the trick with trade books is to write clearly, not that one has to "dumb down" the text (as many academics seem to think is the case—and end up writing very poor trade books)? Any thoughts? --98.217.8.46 (talk) 16:15, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Some thoughts: on aiming at your target audience, I agree, clear communication is everything. The best kind is to be able to explain complex ideas in clear language without insulting them. Dumbing down implies patronising the reader and I think it does. Afaik, getting it published as PhD dissert would come first, then approaching a publishing house. As for reflecting on you, ground would have been broken by people like David Starkey and others who get into mass communication. When you say "trade" press, do you mean as a text book or for other historians? I'd talk the kind of people you feel might affect your prospects; and ask some professors. They'd probably give feedback to someone who hasn't crossed their desks as yet – you can then sift it through. Mike Dash (PhD in Naval history) wrote Tulipomania published by Gollanz and he's got a user page here. Julia Rossi (talk) 02:18, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

and a cheerful set of contributions! - some displacement activity; mind you those brief descriptions are intriguing...the man's obviously a talented writer... I'm just going to have a brief look at those entries... and I may be gone for some time... Mhicaoidh (talk) 09:38, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

In my cynical experience, academic dissertations should have as much waffle and as much jargon in them as possible in order to get high marks. If you follow normal rules of good style such as being concise and avoiding jargon (eg using the word "story" instead of "narrative") then you get a pooorer assessment. 80.2.197.210 (talk) 11:47, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Count of population

What's the best way to count the population of a nation? and how ? explain with much details? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.64.91.147 (talk) 18:27, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Try Census and demographics. Most/all of what you need should be in there. Fribbler (talk) 18:38, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

wittgenstein on popper

Hi, I seem to remember reading in an article in the Guardian Weekly that Wittgenstein criticised Popper simply because his philosophy wasn't merely footnotes to Plato, on the (apparent) assumption that all good philosophy was in fact just that. Have I got this right, because I can't find it by googling, or could it have been someone else levelling the charge at Popper? 203.221.126.3 (talk) 18:42, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

You are correct. Fribbler (talk) 18:47, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

That's a gripping story, but it doesn't seem to support 203.221.126.3's memory of what Wittgenstein may have said about Popper? The only mention of Plato is ascribed to Wasfi Hijab. Xn4 23:06, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Ah. On careful reading it was indeed Hijab. Fribbler (talk) 23:10, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for those answers. I think I actually came across that article googling, but only read the bit about Plato, and moved on. It may have been the actual article that I read in the first place. Even so, if anyone can add to this, I would appreciate it, since it may throw further light on the subject. But presumably I had just misremembered the article. 203.221.127.200 (talk) 17:25, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Presiddential Term of Office

Under the Constitution, the President can only serve two elected terms. If, after serving those terms, is he or she able to sit out a term and serve again? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.183.124.245 (talk) 19:43, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

From the article Term limits in the United_States: The Twenty-Second Amendment states that "no person shall be elected the the office of President more than twice..." So since serving a third term, whenever that may be, means being elected more than twice, then it can't be done. Fribbler (talk) 19:49, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

And the common follow-up question... He cannot be Vice-President either because he cannot be in a position to immediately become President. Now, if he get a cool shiny robot body and ceases being a person, can he be re-elected? -- kainaw™ 19:53, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Of course that was President Of Earth, so a different office entirely :-) Fribbler (talk) 19:55, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Any two-term President could be Vice-President. However, if the President died, resigned, impeached, etc., the VP would be ineligible to accede to the Presidency and it would go to the Speaker of the House. I'm assuming the second question refers to Futurama; we wouldn't know until it is brought to the Supreme Court. ~~

Really? What if there was less than 2 years left when (s)he was VP? Cause a VP can serve for up to 2 years if the president dies and still get elected for two full terms, no? --Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 20:36, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

The 12th amendment states, "no person constitutionally ineligible to the office of President shall be eligible to that of Vice-President of the United States." A two-term President is constitutionally ineligible to the office of the President, which is why I feel that he cannot be Vice President. -- kainaw™ 20:36, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

That's the generally accepted interpretation, but the actual wording makes it unclear — it makes you wonder, or it makes me wonder anyway, what on earth they were thinking of when they drafted the 22nd amendment the way they did. See 22nd Amendment#Interaction with the Twelfth Amendment. --Anonymous, 22:12 (yes!) UTC, 2008-06-06.

I fail to see what is unclear. The phrase "constitutionally ineligible" is very clear. A person who has been elected President twice is "constitutionally ineligible" to be President. If that is the case, the person is not eligible to be Vice-President. The contention in the article is unreferenced and makes terrible use of weasel words. I have a strong feeling it is something someone added because they were too stubborn to accept the law at face value. -- kainaw™ 20:55, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

What you fail to see what is that "constitutionally ineligible to be President" is not necessarily equivalent to be "ineligible to be elected President". Personally I think the intent was that it should be considered equivalent, but they needed to make it explicit, one way or another. --Anonymous, 19:55 UTC, June 9, 2008.

You're saying that the constitution doesn't explicitly prevent, say, Bill Clinton from being elected president again, but it does prevent him from being sworn in again? That would make the people's choice null and void. Did they really mean for that interpretation to ever be considered? If everyone knew that he could never actually get to become president again, what would be the point of going through the electoral process? -- JackofOz (talk) 23:26, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

He is making a reasonable argument. The 22nd amendment states that nobody may be elected more than twice. It does not specifically state that nobody can serve more than eight years - assuming the person was not elected but somehow took office. This was on purpose for situations like Ford. He took office midterm, for less than 2 years, without being elected. He was still allotted two elections - for a total of more than 8 years in office if he won two elections. However, I seriously doubt they considered this to be a loophole for a President to be elected twice and then slip in through the Vice Presidency. -- kainaw™ 23:50, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

What about if you were never elected but appointed by your brother for 4 years? Ooops um ignore that ;-) Nil Einne (talk) 22:54, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Something actually interesting would be a former two-term president being in the post of Speaker of the House, and then being in the position of assuming the Office of the Presidency. Similar for Secretary of State, etc.DOR (HK) (talk) 02:56, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

501(c)3 and State Universities

Is a state university (particularly in Ohio) a 501(c)3 organization? The 501(c) article is a little vague on the subject, and it seems that the foundation that supports scholarships and so forth at my university is one, but I'm not clear on if the university is. Thanks! Cigarette (talk) 20:01, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

I doubt that location makes any difference in relation to tax-exempt status. The 501(c)3 is a federal classification which is offered to organizations dedicated to, for example, education. Not only is the 501(c)3 classification designed to help educational organizations spend money most effectively, but it would also be awkward for the federal tax system. If state universities would be obligated to pay sales tax, their operating expenses would rise dramatically, thus requiring additional federal funding, which would in turn come from the money they had just paid in taxes. As you could imagine, this makes a very ineffective financial cycle. My local university is a 501(c)3 organization, as evidenced by [1] .

If you are in a legislative mood, please read [2] for more concise information. Freedomlinux (talk) 21:00, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Printers' current practice in their relationship with authors

It used to be, when an author had created a writing - a fiction or non-fiction work - that he/she would submit an handwritten (a long time ago), or a typewritten (not so long ago) or a computer printed facsimile of his Work. I should like to know what the accepted practice is to day among the leading printers, if there is a commonality of practice. I take it that, today, every writer or would-be writer uses a computer and a printer. Would an author still send a printed set of pages to editors of his choice or would he simply send a CD, or, if his computer is old, a set of diskettes? Would the author have to go through an agent and if so, what would he send him ? Perhaps he is expected to do both or something else yet? Wildhobo (talk) 21:35, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

First off, the writer would need to approach a publisher rather than a printer. Most publishers will accept manuscripts in a variety of formats, and they will often specify what they want on their website. Sometimes their requirements are very specific, e.g. that you must supply the manuscript in Microsoft Word format, but most are more flexible than that. Also most publishers will not have the time to read an entire manuscript from an unknown author; they prefer to receive a synopsis of the book and a sample chapter only. They can then assess whether they want to see more and perhaps suggest improvements at that stage. Some writers hire a literary agent who understands the market and knows which publishers are most likely to be interested in that particular book. The agent can also advise the writer on editing matters, which fewer publishers are willing to do these days. Beware of vanity publishers. If your book is worth publishing, you will not need to pay a publisher in order to do so.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 06:54, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Shantavira's advice is quite right, but doesn't discuss format - I get the impression you may have a text you wish to distribute to publishers/agents who you hope may be interested. As Shant said a synopsis and up to three chapters is standard, and in terms of format check what each wants but generally a printed manuscript and equivalent on a CD is standard - not many firms like emails with attachments unless you are known to them. However most of these submissions are doomed never to be looked at. What is much better is to arrange a meeting directly with the publisher to discuss the project and what they are interested in. They have a business plan and you need to make your self part of it. This is where agents can be very handy, they have an existing relationship and can get you in the front door, at a price.

Shant and myself have both assumed that your original question meant publisher rather than printer, but if indeed you did mean printer, just remember that printing is the easy part! Distribution and sales are very, very difficult to achieve on your own. Mhicaoidh (talk) 09:18, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Plato's Allegory of the cave

What is the meaning of Plato's allegory of cave? --24.193.17.140 (talk) 22:25, 6 June 2008 (UTC)Abrar Ahmed

As with many allegories, there just isn't a definitive answer to that question. But see Allegory of cave#Interpretation. Xn4 00:00, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, looking at the article, I think the lead section should include a brief mention of the meaning/interpretations/issues-raised. Fribbler (talk) 00:04, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Josephus and the dance of the seven veils

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Please clarify what seems to be an error on the page describing the dance of the seven veils.

Wikipedia states that Josephus provided a name for the stepdaughter of Herod Antipas (correct) and also provided the name of the dance she performed before Herod.

This makes the reader assume Josephus named the dance "the dance of the seven veils".

In reading Josephus I could NOT find where he names the dance.

Where does Josephus name the dance, as you claim on that Wikipedia page, and what did he say its name WAS?

Thank you. 71.111.153.129 (talk) 22:23, 6 June 2008 (UTC)J. Salkieldt

Looking at chapter XVIII of Antiquities of the Jews, it seems to me (as it does to you) that Josephus does not name the dance. And of course he has no reason to mention Salome anywhere else. Xn4 23:54, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Tracing this back through the history, it appears that at some moment there was a true statement: "Details enriching the story in later Christian mythology include providing a name for the dance, and describing the purpose of the dance as being to inflame King Herod with incestuous desire so that he would treat John as she wished". Another correct statement was added: "The historian Josephus gives the stepdaughter's name, Salomé". These two statements were coupled in a very ambiguous way: "The historian Josephus gives the stepdaughter's name, Salomé and other details ..."). This was next misinterpreted, and edited to be unambiguous, but in the wrong interpretation: "The historian Josephus lists the stepdaughter's name as Salomé and provides other details ...".  --Lambiam 05:57, 7 June 2008 (UTC)