Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2008 September 20

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September 20

Henry VIII

Modern people criticize King Henry VIII for his flagrant behavior, but what was the general opinion of him during the time he ruled? I imagine he wasn't popular with the church, but what of his subjects?CalamusFortis 02:07, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

"Approval ratings" are a modern invention. The approval that matters is the approval of those with the power to do something about their disapproval: this of course is still true today. "Henry VIII's approval rating" is an anachronistic idea.- Modern historians describe and analyze, keeping in mind the "limits of the possible" in action and thought: we are less aware of the limited horizons of our own actions and thoughts, and often apply modern criteria to "criticize" historic figures. The result may be self-satisfying, but it's not history. -Wetman (talk) 17:31, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

From what I have read from various accounts written by people who were subjects of Henry VIII, it seems like he had a mixed review, but mostly favorable. I think an approximate analogy to Henry would be the American president Theodore Roosevelt, who had a reputation for eccentric behavior, and was flambouyant and a bit of a braggart, but was generally liked and respected by Americans - so much so that his visage ended up along with Lincoln, Washington and Jefferson on Mount Rushmore. My impression of Henry's subjects' attitudes towards their monarch was that they took delight in his many eccentricities, and more-or-less looked the other way at his shortcomings. Saukkomies 16:00, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Mind you, the priests, monks and nuns, who were turfed out of their presbyteries, monasteries and convents, would not have been particularly impressed, and the common people, who were mainly Roman Catholic, may well have been very much in sympathy with them. Not that they could do anything about it. -- JackofOz (talk) 20:43, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Consider also temporal change: he was widely loved at the beginning of his reign as a renaissance man, warrior, and chivalrous knight. It seems however that he was corrupted by never being denied anything, like a spoiled child. By the end of his reign, England was in poor financial straits with power-hungry courtiers tearing apart the kingdom his father had recently united.

Is Sarah Palin a creationist?

I know that she has stated that she would support creationism being taught in schools, but does she actually believe in it and is she a young earth creationist? I cannot see anything in the article, or elsewhere, that actually says she believes in it, just the assumption due to her support for teaching it. Baked Bean Bob (talk) 08:44, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

This Salon article (you may have to go through an ad before you can read it) makes a pretty strong case that, yes, she believes this stuff: "Another valley activist, Philip Munger, says that Palin also helped push the evangelical drive to take over the Mat-Su Borough school board. "She wanted to get people who believed in creationism on the board," said Munger, a music composer and teacher. "I bumped into her once after my band played at a graduation ceremony at the Assembly of God. I said, 'Sarah, how can you believe in creationism -- your father's a science teacher.' And she said, 'We don't have to agree on everything.' I pushed her on the earth's creation, whether it was really less than 7,000 years old and whether dinosaurs and humans walked the earth at the same time. And she said yes, she'd seen images somewhere of dinosaur fossils with human footprints in them."" DAVID ŠENEK 09:41, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Oy vay! Well, there's a site that is maintained called the Index to Creationist Claims that attempts to address all of the various claims made by Creationists. This is a very useful list, and I happen to refer to it on a regular basis, unfortunately. I checked up on this claim that Palin was supposed to have said about dinosaur fossils with human footprints on them, and here is that Index's response to this particular claim. Saukkomies 16:53, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

What it sounds like to me is that she doesn't care very much about it and isn't taking a strong position on it. She appears to lean in an evangelical direction but it's not very serious, she's not asserting it with any real knowledge. She saw some picture once. I mean, that's not exactly a strong defense on her part. (I can't stand her but I don't think her having mild, wishy-washy Creationist leanings is her worst quality. That's only makes her fit in with the majority of her Republican "base", that's all. Actually on that topic she's better than most of her base—she doesn't seem eager to press the issue.) --98.217.8.46 (talk) 02:40, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

No. If she says "both should be taught in schools", then yes, she is advocating it. Also note that that is the creationist instance. Anyone who dismisses creationism wouldn't consider the possibility. — Kieff | Talk 02:53, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

I have never seen her push it. The "teach both" is a politically convenient thing to say for someone who is trying to appeal to an evangelical base, especially if it is offered up as a vague opinion and not as a policy point. If she's just putting that out there as something she wouldn't be opposed to, but isn't pushing for it, again, I'm not really that concerned. That just means she's playing bland evangelical politics. If you want to get up in arms about her evangelical views, worry about her stance on abortion, something she I suspect she would actually push for. In any case in the executive branch she wouldn't have much control over things like creationism in schools—at most she'd be advocating the wishy-washy "let local school boards decide" position, which is already basically how things are. Again, I don't support her, and I think she'd be a horrible choice for national leadership, but this particular issue seems to me like one of the lesser ones to worry about in her case. The Creationism issue is a nice bugaboo but it's not something that the White House has a whole lot of influence over, due to the way US education works. It's also not something I think we need to be too worried about—there are a lot of checks in place already that make it unlikely that it will gain much of a foothold (parents are usually more concerned with their kids being admitted to a good college than they are about them being indoctrinated in biology class, which is no doubt part of the reason that those districts which have occasionally strayed into creationism often stray back away from it pretty quick once they become a laughing stock). Just my take on things (as a committed anti-creationist, but one who recognizes there are more pressing issues at the moment). --98.217.8.46 (talk) 19:16, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Actually, for me as a high school and middle school teacher of Earth Science (which includes teaching about evolution as part of the curriculum - you know, fossils and such), the subject of having to be forced to teach Creationism to my students is of much more personal direct importance than whether abortion becomes illegal or not. It all depends on who you are as to which particular political subjects will be most important. Saukkomies 21:49, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

I think she might know better than to try to press the issue. There are only a couple of states that have successfully managed to force the teaching of Creationism as part of the standard science curriculum. In spite of the fact that a lot of Fundamentalist Christians would love to make everyone accept that Creationism is science, it is in fact not. Creationism has no scientific proof or basis to stand on. Instead, it is a conjecture that the universe was created as stipulated in Genesis, which is not a scientific theory, but a bit of religious dogma. Forcing science teachers to teach religious dogma as part of the public schools' science curriculum is, therefore, unethical if not unconstitutional. Sarah Palin supports doing precisely this, and yes, by advocating this she is proving that she believes in Creationism, else why on earth would she be behind the idea of forcing religion into a science curriculum? Saukkomies 14:09, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

$100,000 deposit guarantee for accounts

Is this guarantee for every person or for every bank account? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mr.K. (talk • contribs) 10:46, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

What country are you talking about? --Anon, 11:17 UTC, September 20/08.

In the US, the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation insures deposits in "member banks", and according to the FRB FAQs "Almost all U.S. banks and savings associations are members of the FDIC.". Also see the FDIC FAQs. Zain Ebrahim (talk) 11:25, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

By the looks of this (http://www.fdic.gov/deposit/deposits/insuringdeposits/index.html) it seems yes if the bank is a FDIC member. ny156uk (talk) 11:50, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

This FDIC insurance up to $100,000 is per depositor per bank. If a person, or entity (such as a business or whatever) has assets in a bank that exceeds $100,000, it may be a wise thing to open an account in another bank. I once was a director of a small public library, and one year after our annual audit we were instructed by our accountant that we now had assets for over $100,000, and that we were therefore required by the guidelines set forth by how non-profit organizations are run in our state (not sure how it would be for other states) to open a separate savings account in another bank in order for our assets to be fully protected under the FDIC. In other words, it was necessary to make sure we never had an account in any particular bank that exceeded the $100,000. Saukkomies 16:47, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Discriminating the fat and ugly

Is there any law that prohibit discrimination fat, ugly people? I don't remember having seen a law stating that discrimination on grounds of appearance is not allowed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mr.K. (talk • contribs) 10:49, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Whilst undoubtedly there will be discrimination against obese people and 'ugly' people (obviously ugliness is a personal preference trait rather than consistent), I am not aware of any discrimination law specifically designed to cover this form of discrimination. That doesn't mean that an individual that is blatantly discriminated against on this basis couldn't successfully sue the accused though ny156uk (talk) 10:55, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

What country are you talking about? --Anon, 11:17 UTC, September 20/08.

Does it matter? is there any country for which the answer would be "yes"? - Nunh-huh 12:37, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Apparently Washington DC outlaws this form of discrimination - [1]. -- JackofOz (talk) 20:38, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

IMO it matters in that "is there a law in any country in the world that prohibits discrimination against people on the basis of their size or appearance?" is a much broader question than "is there any such law in country A" or "is there any such law in country B?

This [[2]] might be of interest. It deals specifically with discrimination agaist large people, and raises the idea of legal protections for those who are overweight. It does not mention any such laws.

Wanderer57 (talk) 20:41, 20 September 2008 (UTC

Don't know about apparence but for weight, definitely some places do[3]. Note that even if the law does not explicitly outlaw discrimination of this sort, depending on how any discrimination law is phrased and the precise circumstances it may still be considered discriminatory. Nil Einne (talk) 09:43, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Are textbook questions copyright?

The question came up in conversation today, and I can't seem to find any real answer out there in cyberspace. The textbooks we had mind were maths textbooks (though I'm curious about this in general), and we eventually figured you probably couldn't copyright something like "x + 2 = 0, solve for x" - there must be many textbooks with that exact question. But what about a page full of such questions? What about something like "The bus has two people on it, then in 5 minutes, no people. How many people got off the bus"? What about exam papers? If you write up and distribute worked solutions to either a text book or exam (that aren't included in the original work), are you violating any copyright laws? Cheers, Ben (talk) 13:02, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

In order to accurately answer your question it is necessary to know what you would be using this for. Is it for a classroom or other circumstance where teaching is taking place? This has bearing on the usage of copywritten material. Saukkomies 13:20, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Ok, suppose I write up worked solutions to the exercises for a textbook or exam, is it ok for me to give these out for study purposes (no money involved) provided worked solutions to the exam/textbook weren't a part of the original work? If so (and I presume the answer is yes), is it then ok for me to include the original question together with the worked solution so people know which question I'm working out? If not, to what level are the questions copyright (ie, my original question)? Thanks for your reply, Ben (talk) 13:34, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Okay, my wife helped me on this. She is an expert in copywrite law, being the person at the university she works for (she too is a librarian) who is the "contact person" for all copywrite questions. She answers copywrite questions all the time that come to her from faculty and graduate students who are publishing articles and writing books and such. So, with those credentials, here is what she had to say on the subject. This pertains to the United States, and may or may not be applicable in other countries.

If you were to take a textbook and copy verbatim a list of mathematical formulae in the form of a test or study guide, then you are using someone else's creative work. In other words, someone went to the bother of collecting all those formulae and putting them down in an organized way, and that requires some creativity on their part. When a person creates something it is automatically considered to be protected under copywrite law - regardless of whether the person actually goes to the effort to formally and officially make it copywritten. So, if you were taking a page from a textbook, and either photocopying it or copying it by hand, you are using copywritten material, and breaking the law (see below for exceptions to this).

In a broader sense, general mathematical formulae and scientific data are of themselves not copywrite protected; they're considered public domain, general knowledge. However, once someone takes the mathematical formulae or scientific data and organizes it into a test, a textbook, a table, or anything else, then that person has used his or her own creative effort to do so, and that is when the material then becomes protected under copywrite law. Story problems are such examples of taking mathematical formulae and using creativity to come up with them, so for example: the mathematical formula "2 plus 2 equals 4" would not be protected under copywrite law, but "If Sally has 2 apples and Dick has 2 apples, and they both give all of their apples to Jane, then how many apples does Jane have?" would be protected under copywrite law.

So, the problems themselves are not copywritten, but the problem sheet or the collection of them is.

Now, regarding the "Fair Use" clause under U.S. copywrite law, material that is protected by copywrite may be used for educational purposes if it successfully passes certain requirements for how it's being used, which are called "The Four Factor Test", or "Balancing Test". The Fair Use wiki article goes into this in detail, but basically here are the four factors:
•the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
•the nature of the copyrighted work;
•the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and
•the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.
Another thing to keep in mind is whether the book you're using is a workboook. A workbook, which has tear-out sheets meant to be used by the student, is considered under copywrite law to be a "consumable" product. As such, it does not fall under the Fair Use clause. So, if you're getting your math problems from a workbook - regardless of whether you're consuming the tear-out sheets or not (for instance, if you photocopied the tear out sheets) - then you would not be following the Fair Use guidelines. You could use the exact same information from a textbook, though, and if it is being used for educational purposes, you'd be probably protected under Fair Use and would not be breaking copywrite law. Confusing, no?

The whole thing about Fair Use is that there's really no hard, set-in-concrete answers. The reason is that there have been so very few court cases that have tested the use of material for educational purposes, that it is difficult to point at any legal precedent for a particular instance of how any material might be used. That, and the "Four Factor Test" is deliberately vague for the protection of the person who is wanting to use the material.

Hope that helps. If you want, reply back for further clarification, and I'll see whether my wife is up to the task! Saukkomies 14:17, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Pardon me but I must insist. Copyright. Not copywrite. Copyright. The right to copy, not writing copy. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 16:23, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the correction. I've always had a problem spelling that word correctly. Obviously, too, it was I who wrote the posting, not my wife, whom I'm certain would not have misspelled the word. No matter how much one imagines his intellectual powers to be, it seems that there are always instances such as this that provide lots of reasons for a person to maintain a healthy humility about one's own limitations... May I also add that being corrected by someone as Wikifamous as yourself is indeed an honor. No sarcasm intended. It's always a personal delight whenever anyone of any note within the Wikiuniverse comments on anything I've written, even if it is to correct me. I now assume the Garth and Wayne posture of humility, and chant: "I'm Not Worthy! I'm Not Worthy!" hee heeSaukkomies 15:23, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

*snort* I kinda held back -- I decided a long time ago that spelling corrections are not a particularly useful mode of communication, but there were these long needles being poked into my eyeballs this time. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 18:31, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Saukkomies' wife. Individual mathematical questions, etc., probably not copyrightable. Collection of them, esp. in a textbook, definitely copyrightable. I would also put into the fray the idea that the particular nature of a textbook is that it is expected that it will be used to create problem sheets, problems on the chalkboard, etc., which expands the fair use a bit more than you'd get from, say, a poem or a painting. Things that are explicitly created for pedagogical purposes are going to be treated a little more loosely in an educational setting than other types of works. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 21:53, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

women's breast size

For an average women with higher bra size, say 36 D or something like that, what would be the distance between two nipples (natural when not wearing any dress) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.92.122.65 (talk) 15:57, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

This question would be better placed at the science desk. DAVID ŠENEK 17:58, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Chaplain of First Continental Congress

Is there a way to find out who was the chaplain of the First Continental Congress? The article doesn't say, and I can't find it with a google search. Bubba73 (talk), 21:42, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

The first prayer of the Continental Congress is here [4], and attributed to Reverend Jacob Duché, Rector of Christ Church of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, however it does not say if he had an official appointment as "Chaplain of the Continental Congress" - or if such a post existed. He may just have been a convenient cleric. DuncanHill (talk) 21:51, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Seems Bubba found what he was after. -- JackofOz (talk) 22:34, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Actually I was trying to see if William Linn was the chaplain of the first US Congress (1789), not the first Continental Congress (1774), as I originally said. I found google references to Linn as the chaplain of the first US congress, but his article doesn't state it. Bubba73 (talk), 22:55, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

I assume you found this [5] for Linn being first chaplain of Congress. DuncanHill (talk) 23:49, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

No, I hadn't seen that page but I did find some others. I saw you changed the article, thanks. Bubba73 (talk), 00:11, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Resolved

Bubba73 (talk), 16:01, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Immersive personality disorder

Is there a specific term/condition for being prone to immersing in the immediate "reality"? Sort of like if someone were "brainwashed" without the brainwashing; or similar to that case on House (TV series) - Mirror Mirror (House) (seems Rickettsiaceae was the condition), but less about mirroring, and more about accepting projection? For example, such a sufferer would suddenly believe they had military service if, in response to something, they were chided, "What do you mean? Don't you remember serving in 'Nam?" Not gullibility, per se. 98.169.163.20 (talk) 22:21, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Suggestibility? --Tango (talk) 22:41, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Confabulation? Clarityfiend (talk) 23:46, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

If such a condition were encountered (and classified), it would probably be considered some kind of fugue, or some other dissociative disorder. Some people are more suggestible than others, and researchers have invented various terms to describe that trait (suggestion prone, fantasy prone....), for example [6]. -Haikon 00:53, 21 September 2008 (UTC)