Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2011 January 9

Welcome to the Wikipedia Humanities Reference Desk Archives
The page you are currently viewing is an archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the current reference desk pages.

January 9

Walmart statistics

I'm looking for a website that shows how many Chinese goods Wal-Mart consumes on a yearly bases and how it effects the U.S. economy (either good or bad). I would also like to find out how much Chinese goods Wal-Mart consumes compared to other international companies. Thank you. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 00:00, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Walmart doesn't consume any Chinese goods (except for a small amount for overhead). Walmart resells Chinese goods, and if they didn't someone else would. It's the people buying the goods that consume them. So it's kind of pointless to look at walmart in isolation here. As for the economy, Chinese goods (in general, not just WalMart) have two effects: It lets people buy things that they otherwise couldn't. This raises the standard of living for the entire US. It also means there is a smaller market for US manufacturing which makes it harder to find jobs - but simultaneously with that, the existence of cheap goods means that US job hunters don't need as much money from a job as they otherwise would. It's up to you to decide what is good and bad here. Ariel. (talk) 01:51, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Like, for example, whether the ongoing demolition of the middle class is a good thing. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 09:22, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

The consensus view of economists is that free trade is a good thing as everyone is better off in the long run, unlike protectionism or beggar thy neighbour. Study the article comparative advantage to see why. 92.15.24.111 (talk) 16:36, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Basically dumbing-down our own economy and building up the economy of places that couldn't care less about us. Hence the spread of WalMarts, since that's all anyone will be able to afford as time goes on. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:41, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Methinks you have not read the comparative advantage article. 92.15.24.111 (talk) 16:44, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

But what if one nation (China) can build everything cheaper than another, due to lack of safety and environmental regulations, slave labor, currency manipulation, etc. ? Or, when they do want something from the other nation, what if they just steal it, via copyright infringement ? Will trade balance out under these conditions ? StuRat (talk) 04:00, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

If china damages the US economy too much people in the US don't have money to buy from them. So the trade always reaches a balance. Some people don't like where the balance ends up though. But China's economy is heavily dependent on the US, and there is a limit to how far they can tip the balance. Ariel. (talk) 04:33, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

Yes, if that limit is when the US trade deficit means they can't pay their debts and default, causing a worldwide depression, not many people would be happy with that result. StuRat (talk) 05:50, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

You misunderstand. The trade is always at the limit. There is no upper limit that can be reached, the trade always operates at the maximum for the current moment. Take a look at the dramatic effect of the current US recession. Ariel. (talk) 06:18, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

I think that illustrates what I was talking about nicely. The US came close to going into another Great Depression, and this only had the effect of cutting the trade deficit in half. To actually end the trade deficit would likely have required exactly that, which most people would find to be an unacceptable solution. StuRat (talk) 22:46, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

Right, Bugs, so by putting pressure on people to be better educated and thus have more skilled jobs (since the unskilled jobs are in China) how, exactly, is that dumbing down? Many people who are layed off from factory jobs end up at community colleges or other places getting training for jobs that DO exist. Exactly how is this dumbing down? --Jayron32 01:21, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

I think the idea is that the high-tech manufacturing jobs will all be replaced by people working at McDonalds, and, of course, stocking shelves at Walmart. StuRat (talk) 04:06, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

To answer what you said abouve STU "But what if one nation (China) can build everything cheaper than another". Check out the article on comparative advantage and you will see that the ability to produce something cheaply on its own does not determine whos its producer will likely be. Also an understanding of division of labour and departmentalization (what Adams Smith called specialisation show that such a situation is improbable. To put comparative advantage simply, the import of cheap chinese goods frees up American labour to produce more complex (and in time valuable) goods.58.106.30.147 (talk) 06:23, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

...which would only happen if the Chinese were then willing to buy those goods, in return, to balance the trade deficit. So far they have shown no willingness to do so. There are various ways to close their markets to foreigners (except for token quantities), and they employ many of them. The theory starts with the assumption of total free trade, and that's not the real situation here. The Chinese will just copy the complex goods made in the US, instead.

Another balancing force which will eventually happen, is that the Chinese standard of living will rise to the point where they no longer are willing to work as slave labor. This is essentially what happened with cheap Japanese goods in the 1960s and 70s. However, the Chinese population is so much larger, that the US will likely go bankrupt long before this happens. StuRat (talk) 22:40, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

One of the main problems with trade data is that it counts as an import the entire value of the product, regardless of how much was made where. The Wall St Journal has an op-ed that says the Made-in-China value of an iPhone is US$6.50, and that the rest of the value should not be attributed to bilateral trade. Makes sense. Moreover, since 54% of China's exports are made by foreign-invested companies, there is going to be a big problem separating what is "made by China" from what is "made in China." Further, any consideration of what Wal-Mart (et al) sells is going to have to consider the impact on consumer purchasing power. One estimate puts it at something around US$400 per US family. And, no one shops at Wal-Mart (et al) because they don't like the selection at Saks Fifth Avenue. They shop their for the low prices. Why abuse thrifty shoppers?DOR (HK) (talk) 09:43, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

While I agree with free trade in principle, one problem with free markets is externalisation of costs. If some people get to use a shared resource (like the oceans or the atmosphere) without paying for it, while others don't, the market gets distorted. One way to overcome this is, of course, to lift environmental regulation and similar restrictions. But that way lies the tragedy of the commons. The alternative is to level the playing field by artificially compensating for the externalised costs. This alternative is, of course, prone to political misuse, but its still better than thrashing the planet in a competition to have the lowest nominal production costs. And a third alternative is to accept the imbalance, and to live with the fact that others may gain quality of life faster than we do, hoping that as the economic differences level off, so will the acceptance of environmental degradation. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 11:30, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

desert rats

sir i have a great friend . his name is des ( dixie ) warner . des turned 92 on the 19 th november 2010. a remarkable old man . i play golf with him every wednesday at crown mines golf course in johannesburg . des was a desert rat in the 2 nd world war .he was in th 7 th armoured division . i need to know the following ;

i have got an actual letter of an invertation to all the rats in that division to attend a reunion in 1985 . having gone through all the names i saw the name harry openheimer i have not seen des yet to ask him about my question . is this harry oppenheimer the kimberly diamond ( de beers ) chairman . was harry o a desert rat . did he fight in the world war , with des warner . what can you come up with here .

gary gailey —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.135.159.2 (talk) 05:49, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Our article on Harry Oppenheimer mentions De Beers but doesn't say anything about the War years. It also has this external link (click here), though, which may have more information. Sorry, I should have checked first: that appears to be a dead link. WikiDao ☯ 06:26, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

According to Time magazine Harry Oppenheimer of De Beers was in the Desert Rats. --Antiquary (talk) 13:39, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

From this page: "The 4th SA Armd Car Regt was awarded the famous Desert Rat Emblem for it’s role in the the 4th Recce battalion “Desert Rats”. Of interest, Lt Harry Oppenheimer, later Chairman of the Anglo American Corporation served as an officer in this unit until July 1942 when he was posted back to South Africa." Alansplodge (talk) 17:22, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

The Royal Park in the UK and The Crown

Are the Royal Parks in the UK still (technically) owned by the Royal Family/The Crown or are they public property? --CGPGrey (talk) 12:43, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

I believe they are owned by the Crown Estate. That's a little different to being owned by the monarch themselves. The monarch is more of a trustee than an owner. --Tango (talk) 12:53, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Interesting. They are part of the crown estate, which itself is part of The Crown. Thank you. This now leads me to my next question... --CGPGrey (talk) 14:47, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

It's worth noting that when something is 'public property' in the UK, that normally means it is formally owned by the Crown, and the Crown Estate is the institution set up to administer the land owned by the Crown. So in effect the original question is a "distinction without a difference". Some land which people think of as public property is owned by local authorities of various kinds. However the Royal Parks are not managed by the Crown Estate, but by the Royal Parks Agency (which has a crown on its logo, incidentally). Sam Blacketer (talk) 18:05, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Though when it comes down to it, there isn't much land that isn't. Marnanel (talk) 22:08, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Properties of The Crown that use a crown in their logo?

The Royal Parks has a crown in its logo. Are there any other Crown properties that also use crown? --CGPGrey (talk) 14:48, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Ascot Racecourse does too. the wub "?!" 15:03, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Regent Street may not have a crown in the logo, but the name clearly implies who the landlord was. The logo is a simple R, which also may stand for rex or regina. Those of a sarcastic mind will appreciate the motto "...where time is always well spent". --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 21:06, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

"Do not weep; do not wax indignant. Understand." - Baruch Spinoza

What is the original text that this quote comes from? I'd like to see it in context. Thanks 92.15.24.111 (talk) 15:06, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Allowing for the different possible ways of translating Spinoza's Latin I think your quotation is probably from the first chapter of his unfinished Tractatus Politicus, or Political Treatise. In A. H. Gosset's translation it goes "I have laboured carefully, not to mock, lament, or execrate, but to understand human actions". You can find the full context here. --Antiquary (talk) 17:16, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, the quote appears to be a gross distortion of the true text. 92.15.24.111 (talk) 18:52, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Pathology of confusing "you" with "me"

some developmental disorders cause people to have difficulty telling the difference between "you" and "me", what do you call this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.189.219.112 (talk) 16:47, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

I've taken the liberty of adding a heading to your question, so as to separate it from the one above. Hope you get an answer. --Antiquary (talk) 17:09, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Traditionally, people affected by Broca's aphasia are said to have general difficulty with "function words" and grammatical particles... AnonMoos (talk)

Theory of mind contains some useful information on this question. Karenjc 18:25, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

This is called pronoun reversal and it is most commonly associated with autism. Looie496 (talk) 18:32, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

And it can be extraordinarily difficult to break out of; I remember when I went through it (I'm PDD-NOS). I was 3-4, and it took a tremendous amount of speech therapy to fix. It's very strange; I knew the difference between individual people (he/she was never a problem), but when I was speaking about I/you it was like asking a red-green colorblind person what the color of grass is; I just couldn't tell the difference. And what really confounded my parents is that I could tell the difference when reading (I started reading before I turned 2), but I couldn't carry it over to conversation. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 19:41, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Ulster Volunteer Force

Would anyone happen to know under which UVF brigade the town of Omagh in County Tyrone would have come under in the 1970s? I would guess that the Mid-Ulster brigade led (after July 1975) by Robin Jackson controlled it, but I have never seen anything which specified Omagh and the surrounding area as having come under Jackson's jurisdiction. Thank you. I need the info for an article I'm currently working on.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:39, 9 January 2011 (UTC).

I've done some research but have been unable to come up with anything firm. There are some mentions of a Tyrone group (not specifically referred to as a brigade) existing in the late 1960s and early 1970s; whether this came under the jurisdiction of the Mid Ulster brigade, and when it ceased to exist as a distinct group, I can't tell. Warofdreams talk 16:39, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

So far Iv'e come up with zero. I recall hearing of a UVF group which operated in the Tyrone/Fermanagh area in the 1970s. I read about them in an old Belfast Newsletter in regards to a spate of killings and attacks in the Omagh area in the mid-1970s. If I still lived in Dublin I'd go into the National Library and check out the old Belfast Newsletters. I am wondering if the local commander was one of the Somerville brothers. The Mid-Ulster brigade did operate in Tyrone, but they don't seem to have done much around Omagh.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:48, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

Travelling with children

I've recently watched season 6 of Weeds (TV series) and on two occasions I noticed the Botwins were asked for additional documentation in order to be allowed to take the baby (Stevie) out of the United States: When trying to flee to Canada, the border guard asked for the baby's birth certificate; and at Detroit, now in posession of (fake) Icelandic passports, they were asked if they had the mother's permission (Nancy having being delayed - caught by Esteban - getting to the airport). It got me wondering, is it normal for TSA (or border guards) to request such additional documentation when travelling with children? Why were birth certificates/letters of authorization not requested for the teenage boys? What happens if you are a single parent or divorced? Astronaut (talk) 21:05, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Have you checked out the website of the CBSA? -- Mwalcoff (talk) 21:23, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

(OR again, sorry:) Yes, it is. I travelled with a twelve-year-old (my daughter, a US citizen) from the US to the UK last year, and I had to get a letter of authorisation from her mother in order to get her a passport in the first place. I carried it with me in case some border guard asked further questions. I think they're worried about non-custodial parents kidnapping their child. Marnanel (talk) 22:06, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

I do not know the television programme which triggered the question. If the first border guard is the one letting the characters into Canada, this is would be the CBSA referred to above, the Canada Border Services Agency. I am given to understand that the Canadian authorities take the issue of International child abduction (usually the kidnapping of a child by one of its parents, in the aftermath of a messy custody battle) very seriously indeed. If, however, this border guard is the one permitting individuals to leave the United States -- and I was not aware that there is such a need -- then perhaps the Parental Kidnapping Prevention Act would be relevant. Discussion on forums such as this one backs up my assertion that the Canadian authorities are stricter on this matter than some visiting Americans are prepared for. NiagaraThisWeek explains how the CBSA highlighted National Missing Children's Day here. See also the CBSA page on "Our Missing Children", and the Our Missing Children site itself. This New York Times article "Stroller, Diapers, Paperwork" and its comments provide more examples of the precautions to be taken before taking children across international borders. BrainyBabe (talk) 12:46, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

industrial cleaning'

what are the uncommon but effective tips for industrial cleaning41.217.65.10 (talk) 21:22, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Whatever your teacher or textbook in whatever class assigned this homework assignment said they are? --Jayron32 01:19, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

Industrial cleaning of what ? Floors ? Dishes ? Trucks ? StuRat (talk) 03:31, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

Mexican chocolate in UK

Are "Abuelita" or "Ibarra" chocolate tablets available in the UK? If not, is there some other Mexican-style hot chocolate product available there? LANTZY^TALK 21:38, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Well I see Ibarra is available at http://www.mexgrocer.co.uk Dmcq (talk) 21:52, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, but I should have been more specific: Is it available in shops? If I had a sudden urge for Mexican chocolate, could I run to the local whatever and have a prayer of finding it? LANTZY^TALK 22:00, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

I don't recall ever seeing it, or anything similar. What is 'Mexican-style hot chocolate' like anyway? AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:29, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

The tablets have a gritty texture like pumice, and are laced with various spices, most prominently cinnamon, but also aniseed, chilies, and vanilla. You dump boiling water on the chunks and stir it until the tablets have dissolved. That's your basic Mexican hot chocolate. It's spicier than gringo hot chocolate, more highly caffeinated, and less cloying. It can probably be made from scratch, but I've never attempted it. I've always just bought the little hexagonal yellow boxes. It's very common in the US, to the point that you sometimes find monolingual Anglo packaging. LANTZY^TALK

Sounds interesting. I'd think from the existence of the website that you might be unlikely to find it in many places - they wouldn't be selling things online that were easily obtainable elsewhere. You might find a shop or two in London that would stock it - there are all sorts of wonderful specialist food shops, if you know where to look. Here's another online source of Mexican goods, though I don't know if they have your Hot Chocolate: [1] AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:00, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Typing "homemade mexican hot chocolate" into Google turned up many recipes, including this one and this one and this one. I can't see any ingredients you cannot get in Britain and keep on hand in case you have a major urge. --Jayron32 01:35, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

Yum. I may try that. Just right for a cold winters day (though presumably the Mexicans think otherwise - or does the Mexican desert get cold at night?). AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:41, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

Far as I know, it does. And if the specified candy is unavailable, just take a Hershey or Nestle bar and coat it with Tabasco Sauce, and you should get the same effect, ¿sí? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:49, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

I doubt it Bugs. Tabasco has vinegar and salt in it, which probably would not go well with chocolate like chilies themselves. Googlemeister (talk) 17:45, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

Back to the original question - no, I've never seen any. I'm sure there must be some Mexicans in London, but they keep a low profile. You'll also be lucky to find a Mexican restaurant away from the West End. Alansplodge (talk) 18:23, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

That doesn't astonish me, but I thought it conceivable that this product might have made it to Britain even without the assistance of Mexican propagators. Other Mexican things have. FYI, Googlemeister: while Bugs' specific suggestion of mixing milk chocolate and Tabasco is not likely to yield anything halfway palatable, it is nevertheless true that a bit of salt greatly enhances the flavor of chocolate. Especially when paired with a little bit of lime juice. LANTZY^TALK 00:23, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

Rote memorizing in US vs UK pedagogy

In the US, it's fairly common for schoolchildren to learn the names of all the presidents, and perhaps nothing else about them, and then go through life with a dim memory of Millards and Rutherfords and no notion of the order in which they came or what was their significance. It's even more common to memorize the fifty states and their capital cities. Both of these procedures are often facilitated by mnemonic songs. I must have learned three "president songs" by the time I finished elementary school, of course not including Jonathan Coulton's "The Presidents", which is far and away the best. My question is this: Is there any such practice in British pedagogy? Are children ever required to memorize the names of prime ministers and subnational entities, perhaps ceremonial counties? Or is British education less listomaniacal? What about in Canada, Australia, etc? What about anywhere else, for that matter? LANTZY^TALK 21:57, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Time was, children had to learn the names and accession dates of all the kings since the Conqueror, but not for a long time. Growing up in the UK, I certainly never had to learn any sort of dataset in this way except the times tables (at which I was terrible, and this kept me in the bottom maths group for around a year). Marnanel (talk) 22:01, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

To put it another way: if I relied on only school for my knowledge, the only British geography I would know would be the borders of the four countries and basic terminology, and some local stuff; the only Kings and Queens I would know would be the ones associated with 1066, the Civil War, and the Tudors. Oh, and Victoria. And even these things were not rote learnt. Times tables were rote learnt, some language learning was rote, and that's it (except for some drilling of key phrases before GCSEs!). 86.163.214.50 (talk) 22:29, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Is it true the Times once had a headline reading, "Fog in Channel - Continent Cut Off"? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:42, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

It is, but I don't see how that is relevant here. Did you mean to create a new section? I learnt more European geography at school than British geography, almost entirely in history and language lessons. 86.163.214.50 (talk) 16:27, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

My mum had to learn the Divorced, beheaded, died; Divorced beheaded survived reminder in school in the 60s but I think that's about it. Nanonic (talk) 22:37, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

The fact that people remember the mnemonic Willy, Willy, Harry, Stee tends to indicate that people did have to learn Monarchs by rote. Prime Ministers don't seem to have been regarded as important enough to learn. Sam Blacketer (talk) 22:42, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

A useful source for many of those educational rhymes is Simon Brett's Faber Book of Useful Verse, if you have access to a copy. --Antiquary (talk) 22:54, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

As others above had said, the only things I had to learn by rote was the times table, nothing else. I was taught nothing about kings or prime ministers, and certainly no lists. 92.24.185.51 (talk) 23:33, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

In Canada you would have a difficult time finding anyone who could name all the Prime Ministers. I certainly never learned a catchy mnemonic for them. (I might be able to name them all, but then, I am a giant nerd.) I think people generally know the provinces and territories, but there are only 13 of them (capitals are a different story). The only Canadian-ish thing I can remember learning by a mnemonic is the Great Lakes. Adam Bishop (talk) 03:22, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

I have to say that by the time I went to school in the U.S., such rote memorization was no longer popular, at least not in "progressive" communities. I mean, we still had spelling, multiplication tables and vocabulary words, but memorizing all of the presidents would have seemed silly. And now that I think about it, we did have game-show-like contests in fifth grade in which we were challenged to name the capital of a given state as quickly as we could, but we were never required to read out all 50 at a time. I do remember that a teacher at another school, as part of the "Ohio history" curriculum that all Ohio students undergo in fourth grade, had her pupils memorize all 88 Ohio counties. Just in case, you know, they ever have to recite all 88 Ohio counties for some reason. And my fourth-grade teacher, convinced I was "too smart" to do whatever the rest of the class was doing, took me aside and tried to get me to memorize the Gettysburg Address. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 05:04, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

I was at primary school in the late 1960's. The only things we learnt off by heart and rote repetition were our multiplication tables and there was nothing like that in secondary school. We went up to 12 x 12 and it was only much later that I realised it was probably because that was pre-decimalisation of the currency and 12 pennies were in a shilling. We never had to learn dates of monarchs or prime ministers, although we were expected to know about them in context for history. Edited to add: just rememebered - I did Latin so we did do some recitation/rote learning for that, but not for French which I also took. Important dates/monarchs/prime ministers were studied but we learnt about them in context, not by rote learning.

I grew up in Ontario, basically in the 80s, and there really wasn't a whole lot of rote stuff done. Certainly not the PMs; I only learned about them at all in grade 7-8 and it was only the ones on the currency - and not even all of them! Back in my day, we still did the multiplication table by rote/repetition, but that's the only thing that comes to mind as having been done that way. The provinces/capitals were somewhat like that, but there were only 12 at the time; it's not like that was the kind of thing that would consume a lot of time, like memorizing dozens of presidents. Matt Deres (talk) 21:33, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

I grew up in Ontario too, and I'm in grade 9 right now. In elementary school we had to memorize the provinces and territories, along with their capital cities. Of course, we also had to know the multiplication table. Those are the only two "lists" I can remember learning about. We only cover anything related to the prime ministers in grades 7, 8, and 10, but only in the context of important historical events; I don't even think all of the prime ministers are mentioned, and certainly there's no need to know any significant number of them. --140.180.26.37 (talk) 19:06, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

Old Venezuelan bolívar

I recently found an old 2,000 bolívar banknote (1995 series) and am wondering if its possible to exchange it for one of the new bolívar fuerte notes and how one could go about that? Being American, traveling to Venezuela is out of the question (just praticality, not because any political reasons). The note itself is kinda ragged and has marks from a ballpoint pen and, as such, I have no desire to keep it (odd for a numismatist/notaphilist), but thought it'd be neat if it could be exchanged. ​​​​​​​​Niagara ​​^{Don't give up the ship} 23:30, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

How old ? If old enough, it may have some collector value beyond the face value. Try a coin shop or two and see if they want it. StuRat (talk) 03:27, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

The note looks like this, which was apparentely first issued in 1994. Taking it to a coin shop is a good idea, but I'd be suprised if they wanted it as it is in really poor condition. ​​​​​​​​Niagara ​​^{Don't give up the ship} 04:04, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

Being in bad shape isn't necessarily a show-stopper, but being less than 16 years old probably is. I doubt if they collect currency that recent, unless there's something rather special about it. You could also try a bank, as they can convert some of the more popular currencies. The bank won't care if it's in good shape, as long as they can identify it. If it's no longer in circulation, though, they may not take it. StuRat (talk) 05:46, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

It says in Currency of Venezuela that old notes will cease to be legal tender on January 1, 2009. No ref for that though. If you want to try to exchange it, mail it to the Central Bank of Venezuela with a note asking for it to be exchanged, and a return envelope with postage. However considering that your note has a face value of less than 50 US cents you probably should not bother. Ariel. (talk) 09:46, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

I think I am goind to send it back to the Central Bank of Venezuela. A news article from August 2010 seems to indicate that both were still being used at the time [2]. Its low face value is why I'm not concerned with converting it to USD. I figure spending a few dollars to get a crisp, new bolivar fuerte note will be worth it, especially if its coming straight from Venezuela. Now, I have to see about going to the post office and getting an IRC. ​​​​​​​​Niagara ​​^{Don't give up the ship} 23:36, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

Why aren't vows of consecrated life considered one of the 7 Catholic sacraments?

Why aren't vows of consecrated life considered one of the 7 Catholic sacraments? --Gary123 (talk) 23:50, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

They aren't? --Jayron32 01:18, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

They aren't. Those in Vows of consecrated life (think nuns, monks, etc.) and those in Holy Orders (priests) all take vows, but they're different things. Why are the latter and not the former considered sacraments? Probably historical accident/contingent history. Nominally, the Church teaches that the sacraments were instituted by Christ, so you'd have to find something in the Bible that you could distort into Christ instituting vows of consecrated life before it would have been a possibility. - Nunh-huh 02:46, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

Evangelical counsels. Gosh, that was easy. Marnanel (talk) 04:58, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

Firstly, as said, you would need something in the Bible where God himself either took such vows as an example, or received such vows from someone with approval, secondly (and this is a little chicken and egg) a Sacrament is supposed to leave a permanent mark on your soul. Taking vows of consecrated life is treated seriously, but it is also generally considered 'reversable' in a way that sacraments are not. 86.163.214.50 (talk) 11:08, 10 January 2011 (UTC)