Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2013 August 4

Welcome to the Wikipedia Humanities Reference Desk Archives
The page you are currently viewing is an archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the current reference desk pages.

August 4

Ruhollah Khomeini's appointment of senior officials and laws on school principals

Under Khomeini's leadership of Iran, did senior government positions and school principals just have to be Muslims, or did they specifically have to belong to the Usuli Twelver Shia Islamic school? Could Sunni Muslims, members of other Shia schools, or members of other Islamic denominations hold these posts? 108.0.244.168 (talk) 01:46, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

In theory, every Muslim man and woman could be; but in practice, only adherents of that Islamic school were allowed to. Sunni Muslims only in Sunni provinces could have intermediate posts. --Omidinist (talk) 03:52, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

So the article should state that only members of whatever school most of the people in a certain province could hold senior government positions? 108.0.244.168 (talk) 04:19, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Could you rephrase your question, please? Is it a question or suggestion? --Omidinist (talk) 10:18, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

It is both a suggestion and question. The section about senior government positions and requirement of Muslim school principals is too vague. Did the laws specify what denominations of Islam qualify for these jobs or not? 108.0.244.168 (talk) 19:53, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

No, it's not in the Law. That's why I said ' in theory, every Muslim man and woman could be.' Please read articles 11-14 of the Constitution here. Any discrimination against Sunnis is against the Law. Omidinist (talk) 03:51, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Is Del Mar a part of San Diego

Is Del Mar a part of San Diego (city, not county)? The article describes it as a separate town. For example, do Del Mar residents vote for San Diego major, does the San Diego population include Del Mar, etc.?

If Del Mar is a part of San Diego, since what year? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.88.21.128 (talk) 05:24, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Del Mar residents do not vote for San Diego major and are outside the city of San Diego, even though they are in the same county. But this article is about which Muslims could hold certain positions in Iran under Khomeini. It doesn't say whether it includes just one Islamic school or others. 108.0.244.168 (talk) 06:14, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

1st it's "mayor", 2nd 108.0.244.168 is correct about it being outside San Diego city but inside San Diego county (2 very separate governments), 3rd how did this become about Iran, wait I don't want to know. ^{Market St.⧏} _{⧐ Diamond Way} 15:22, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

That part must be in reference to the previous section, just above. The IP geolocates to southern California. It's like he's trying to response to two different comments at once, and that doesn't work. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:13, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Ah yes, doing the small screen today Bugs & never saw a combined response on here. Thanks. ^{Market St.⧏} _{⧐ Diamond Way} 18:32, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

The question was added immediately after the previous question, and without a header, so it looked like part of the previous thread, but it clearly wasn't. I did the right thing and created a separate header. But I apparently failed to notice that someone had already added a response about the Khomeini question after this Del mar question had started but before I added the separate header. A comedy of errors indeed. Or, Les Folies Refdesques. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 19:38, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Or a 3rd rate burglary a "whole Bay of Pigs thing, a bizarre" :-). ^{Market St.⧏} _{⧐ Diamond Way} 20:28, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

FYI, the lead of the Del Mar, California article was slightly in error; the rest of the article shows that it's a city, not a town. Nyttend (talk) 16:49, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

This nomenclature is relative. California is the most populous state in the USA with a number of cities having hundreds of thousands up to several million residents. So an urban (or suburban) municipality - perhaps organizationally a "city" - with a population of 4K inhabitants is rightly termed a "town" - even a "small town." -- Deborahjay (talk) 18:13, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

For municipalities in the USA, we go with the legal definition, which for Del Mar is a city; besides being more accurate, it enables us to avoid disputes about "this is too big for a village" or "this is too small for a city". Nyttend (talk) 14:10, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Some US states have a legal distinction between "city" and "town", but if I recall correctly, California does not. However some California cities/towns style themselves "town" on their signage, presumably for quaintness (see Los Altos Hills). --Trovatore (talk) 19:35, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

All good points Deborahjay & Nyttend however since all states (and nations) define what constitutes a city differently it really doesn't matter since a "town" that size in Iowa or Ireland would be anything from a burg, boro, city or hamlet etc. The important part is that the county and major core city have the same name so although Del Mar is in San Diego it isn't in San Diego, the county and city respectively. Town or city it is an equal to San Diego city legally. ^{Market St.⧏} _{⧐ Diamond Way} 18:36, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Do you good novomundane folks really spell borough as "boro"? Heavens above. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 19:38, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

lol, it's a Pennsyltucky thing n'at & dahn. Have seen it around other parts, New York City you have to be careful cause it's the county equivalent. But apologies since after 2007's "fair dinkum" at the airport I should be more aware of any creeping dialect. So yes borough, and thank you! :-) ^{Market St.⧏} _{⧐ Diamond Way} 19:56, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Sorry about getting into this section. Your question was originally in a section I started by mistake. That has now been fixed. 108.0.244.168 (talk) 20:08, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Jack, "boro" is uncommon officially, but you'll frequently see it in informal writing, and it sometimes appears in space-constricted places such as road signs or "Welcome to the Boro of ___" signs. Also note Washington Boro, Pennsylvania, which isn't a borough anymore; presumably "Boro" is still included to separate it from Washington, Pennsylvania at the other end of the state. Nyttend (talk) 14:10, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

I learn something new every day here. Thanks, Nyttend. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 19:30, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

There are many examples. Teterboro was a famous one, as Arthur Godfrey wrote a song about it. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:30, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Cousin marriages in Tonga

What are the laws concerning first cousin marriages in Tonga? Cousin marriage doesn't mention Oceania at all.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 07:09, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Don't know about Tonga specifically, but in many anthropological cultures, marriage with a "parallel" cousin (father's brother's child or mother's sister's child) is forbidden as incest, while a "cross" cousin (mother's brother's child or father's sister's child) is a preferred marriage partner. In fact, in many kinship terminologies, the same terms are used for one's parallel cousins as for one's brothers and sisters, while one's cross cousins are referred to by terms equivalent to "brother-in-law" and "sister-in-law". In such a society, cousin marriage without any further context is meaningless -- it all depends on which kind of cousin. AnonMoos (talk) 18:39, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Culturally Tongans like other Polynesians before European contact would not disfavor cousin marriages or even incest regardless of parallel or cross cousin marriages. I am just wondering if modern laws influenced by the western world has changed this and there are laws prohibiting such unions.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 02:51, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Mandatory school enrollment ((please help))

Is there a U.S. Federal or perhaps a Georgia State law in place that requires Public School Systems to accommodate and enroll ALL eligible children in their districts? I can't seem to find one, hoping you all can help. Thanks ˜˜˜˜ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Brandirum (talk • contribs) 07:13, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

I fixed your title to make it actually useful. As for laws, that would rather depend on why they refuse to enroll a student. If it's because of a disability, then the Americans with Disabilities Act might apply. If it's because of the race of the child, perhaps the Civil Rights Act of 1964 might apply. If they refuse to let a girl into an all-boys school, then maybe Title IX might be applicable. StuRat (talk) 07:26, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Thank you!! I am new to this. The reason for this is they are filled up due to accepting out of county students who CHOSE to for some reason or another come here and pay a tuition and now there are 14 children on the waiting list and there must be 22 before a new pre-k class will open instead of pulling a couple out of each class to make another class these 14 will just be left behind unless they can afford to go 17 miles to the nearest school which is out of county and be charged a tuition themselves.. Brandirum — Preceding unsigned comment added by Brandirum (talk • contribs) 08:35, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps pre-K is considered optional there. As a practical matter, I suggest you go to the press, who can shame them into doing the right thing a lot quicker and cheaper than a lawsuit can. StuRat (talk) 09:23, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Also, try getting the help of your Representative or local politicians - in the UK, Members of Parliament are usually quite good at sorting this sort of mess out. Alansplodge (talk) 19:53, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Publishing false information about companies other than for profit

Recently, here in Australia, we had an interesting case. An environmental activist [allegedly--seeWP:BLP -medeis] put out a fake press release. It stated that a major bank (ANZ) had withdrawn its' loan facility for a controversial coal mining company (Whitehaven Coal) due to "corporate responsibility concerns". This caused a temporary plunge (or "blip") in the company's share price. He was charged with "making a false or misleading statement" under the Corporations act. The case has yet to go to trial.

My question is this: I assume that the laws regarding this area are based around concerns about people manipulating the markets in order to profit thereby, e.g. pump and dump scams. Or the reverse - people shorting a stock, than spreading rumours of bad news in order to re-purchase the shares at a lower price.

In this case, [the accused] was not an employee or investor in Whitehaven Coal. He had no fiduciary duty to the company or its' shareholders. He did not stand to gain (financially) from any movements in the company's share price. Nor did he hack the Stock Exchange's web site so as to pretend that the news came from "the market". Have courts ever ruled as to whether this sort of "not for profit" rumour-spreading breaks any securities laws?

I could imagine other situations where this could occur. For example, a bitter ex-employee (who does not hold shares in his former employer) falsely defaming a company in order to "get back" at them (but gaining nothing, financially, for himself). Has this ever been tested in court as to whether this breaches the law?

(I'm asking about Securities / Corporations law, not laws covering libel or defamation. Many jurisdictions don't allow corporations to sue for libel. And I'm asking about the law here, not morals or ethics).

I'm curious about any Jurisdiction, not just Australia. Has this question ever arisen? 203.45.95.236 (talk) 11:50, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

I don't know about Australia, but in the United States the primary antifraud statute is Section 10(b) of the Securities Act of 1934 and Rule 10b-5, which apply only to transactions "in connection with the purchase or sale of any security." It's not immediately clear how the situation you describe would meet this test. The Supreme Court said in SEC v. Zandford that "the statute must not be construed so broadly as to convert every common-law fraud that happens to involve securities into a violation of § 10(b)." John M Baker (talk) 15:05, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

10b-5 is probably the primary law in the U.S., but I'm sure there are countless others that would apply too. Because you have some context with fiduciary duties, it's interesting to note that the insider trading definitions have expanded greatly since the 1980s, United States v. O'Hagan is probably a highwater mark in those terms. Shadowjams (talk) 16:55, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

• Please be careful not to violate WP:BLP. I have redacted the name of the accused as we have no article on the person and no proof of accusations is given here. μηδείς (talk) 17:48, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

The Yes Men are legendary culture jammers who have pulled many stunts like this. You might want to check their records, to see whether they've been sued or charged with an offence, and if so, what laws were invoked against them. BrainyBabe (talk) 20:12, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

I also can't speak about Australia, but in the UK laws on fraud and suchlike encompass statements which either makes you something (usually but not always money) or causes someone else to lose or risk losing theirs. So you don't personally have to benefit. Prokhorovka (talk) 21:44, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Average potty training age by country?

I would like to know what the average potty training age by country is. Is it later for children in the western world? How about China, Japan or Africa? Thanks --KuchenZimjah (talk) 16:14, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

The wiki article suggests that the average age for western children (two years) is older than eastern, specifically Vietnam (nine months). This article and others on the same webpage extend the same contention to India, China, and East Africa. The page also lists rather a lot of further reading material you may wish to check into. I hope this at least went some way towards answering your question. Biggs Pliff (talk) 01:11, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

My youngest cousin, now age two, was adopted at the age of several months from China; if I remember rightly, she was already potty trained before my uncle and aunt were able to take her home. Nyttend (talk) 03:43, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

That's gotta be wrong, unless the Chinese have some devlish mode of making kids use the potty before they can stand or walk. μηδείς (talk) 20:38, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Some of the Chinese use a bizarre device, a diaper with a hole in it, so the poop drops right out and they can just walk away. Google "Chinese diaper" and pick Image for examples. StuRat (talk) 22:24, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

See also Elimination communication. Infants and parents can apparently learn a way to avoid nappies/diapers. BrainyBabe (talk) 20:44, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

Mesoamerica

Was Mesoamerica more populated than Europe before 1492?--KAVEBEAR (talk) 16:23, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

You yourself raised a question in July where this was discussed at length. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Archives/Science/2013_July_13#Natives. Do you read answers to questions you post here? μηδείς (talk) 18:58, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

The short answer is almost certainly "no", even using the highest population estimates for Mesoamerica. Note, however, that Europe is around 5 times bigger than Mesoamerica. --Bowlhover (talk) 00:16, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

You understand how wrong a lot of the answers were. The Eurocentric approach to Native American history is to play down the population of the Native Americans to alleviate the guilt they have for eradicating a whole race of people from two continents to the point of extinction. Disease passed from Europeans to Native not because they were less populated people but because of the millennium of interactions that the Europeans had with large livestocks. Tenochitlan was one of the most populous area in the world and the population of the region was one of the most populous in the world. I just wanted some numbers/estimate range for each region. --KAVEBEAR (talk) 02:40, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

And how do you know the motivations of the "Eurocentric" researchers? Are you a mind reader? Can you make windows into men's souls? American researchers believed that the Americas had a low population not because of guilt, but because all the available evidence pointed in that direction. Disease wiped out entire societies before Europeans even arrived, so the first European settlers did indeed live in a sparsely populated land, and had no evidence that the population was higher before Columbus arrived. After several generations, not even Native Americans remembered the world that once existed. Archeological digs would not reveal the existence of Norte Chico or the Olmecs (civilizations where high population densities are expected) until relatively recent times. --Bowlhover (talk) 03:27, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

See [1], the problem lies with the varying degree of estimates made for the Americas by estimators with either high counting bias or a low-counting bias.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 02:45, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

It is 25 mill for Mesoamerica and 60 mill for Europe. What is that in term of population density?--KAVEBEAR (talk) 02:47, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Define the boundaries of Mesoamerica and of Europe, in contrast to North/South America and Asia respectively; without such boundaries we really can't say. Nyttend (talk) 03:42, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

The article "Central America" says that its area is 523,780 km² (202,233 sq mi), whereas our article on "Europe" says that its area is 10,180,000 km² (3,930,000 sq mi). Together with the population numbers you just mentioned, this would lead to population densities of 48 inhabitants per square kilometre (120/sq mi) and 5.9 inhabitants per square kilometre (15/sq mi), respectively. Gabbe (talk) 13:02, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

However, modern concepts of Central America are based on national borders, while Europe has rather arbitrary boundaries such as the Ural River. Current national boundaries obviously weren't observed in 1492, while our Europe article notes that the Europe-Asia boundary was substantially different in 1492 and that the Age of Discovery challenged the traditional culture-based boundaries of Europe; it would be hard to specify the continent's precise boundaries in the eyes of the Europeans of 1492. Unless, of course, you're asking about the 1492 population of the areas that are considered Europe and Mesoamerica in 2013; if so, please say that and you'll make our job a lot easier. Nyttend (talk) 13:59, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Mesoamerica as it is usually defined consists of central and southern Mexico, Belize, Guatemala, El Salvador, and western Honduras, so not all of Central America. 25 million is a very high estimate of its population in 1492, but its population probably was at least 10 million. It certainly had a higher population density than Europe as a whole, but that doesn't say much, since most of Mesoamerica is fertile and tropical, with a long growing season, and would thus be expected to support a larger population density than Europe, much of whose area is subarctic. A better comparison would be between Mesoamerica and a region like Italy, which had a higher population density, mainly because European technologies such as metals (for plows), livestock raising, and wind and water mills made its agriculture more productive, while wheeled transport made it possible to feed larger non-peasant populations. (Tenochtitlan's size was an exception in its region and highly dependent on nearby, intensive chinampa farming, whereas Italy had numerous cities that drew agricultural produce from a much larger hinterland.) Marco polo (talk) 14:59, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Finance

An organization received a bill in the month of June. A check, written and mailed in June, was not cashed until sometime in July. At the end of the fiscal year, June 30th, the check was not cashed by the receiver and was not included in the organization's bank statement. Should the billed amount (same as check amount) show as a liability on the organization's balance sheet? (A U.S. Organization) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.83.215.120 (talk) 18:24, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Hi, please always remember to "sign" your posts with ~~~~ so we may be able to see the user asking and their user page/talk page, a small but important point. Although this is asked somewhat as a hypothetical the conclusion one could draw from any answer would be borderline legal advice. We unfortunately do not give legal advice at Wikipedia thou other editors may respond to a more"with" limited "hypotheticals". ^{Market St.⧏} _{⧐ Diamond Way} 18:30, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

This sounds awfully like homework. If it is, we expect you to show what attempt you have made, and what help you need. --ColinFine (talk) 18:33, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Having come from the financial industry my 1st impression might be wrong, this may actually be homework as you observed ColinFine, then again ask Dennis Kozlowski or Martha Stewart about "creative accounting".Book keeping wasn't my side of the biz so I'll be quiet about caution & leave it with the above is the extent of my expertise on this one. ^{Market St.⧏} _{⧐ Diamond Way} 18:45, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

This is an accounting question, not a legal question, but it sure sounds like homework. Here are some questions for you to think about as you consider it: (1) Would it make sense for the entity to continue to record the liability after it has reduced its cash account by the amount of the payment, or to deduct the liability before it has made the deduction from its cash account? (2) Is the entity going to keep the amount of its check in its cash account? John M Baker (talk) 22:04, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

You can refer to Bank reconciliation. Sussexonian (talk) 18:40, 5 August 2013 (UTC)