Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2013 October 24

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October 24

Relationship between foreign services

What's the relationship between the foreign (including clandestine) services of United States, Britain, Israel, Russia and China? I know James Bond shows UK and US cooperating - and Israel is an "ally" of the US. What about Russia? is it more hostile? is it "on the side of" China which has somewhat hostile (hack each other etc) relations with the U.S. (I imagine this might be the case due to communist past?). What about Russia and Israel? hostile to each other? Israel I thought was led by loads of Eastern European emigres? I guess I can imagine this going in either direction. so, which are hostile or cooperative among e.g. CIA MI6 Mossad KGB and whatever Chima 's hack happy service is? (plus other branches or foreign services; these are just examples) thanks!!!! 84.3.160.86 (talk) 12:07, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

We could tell you, but we'd have to kill you....-Jayron32 13:08, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Death by a thousand wiki-edits! ^{Market St.⧏} _{⧐ Diamond Way} 19:49, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

FSB replaced KGB.
Sleigh (talk) 19:01, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Fishing dependent communities in Spain and Portugal

Hello, dear Wikipedians.

I've searched a good bit now I reckon, but cannot find a good answer to what I had hoped would be a simple question: Which Spanish and Portugese regions/communities depend the most on fishing? Is their vast distant fishing fleet 'local' to any particular region?

I hope you can help me. Thank you in advance.

88.89.136.248 (talk) 13:06, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Fishing in Portugal#Marine fisheries says The main landing sites in Portugal (including Azores and Madeira), according to total landings in weight by year, are the harbours of Matosinhos, Peniche, Olhão, Sesimbra, Figueira da Foz, Sines, Portimão and Madeira.

The article Spain#Economy doesn't even mention fishing, so maybe it's not so important there. Duoduoduo (talk) 16:15, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

"Any study of the EU fishing fleet has to start with Spain, by far the EU's most significant fleet that ranks the highest in terms of tonnage, power and value of landings and is only tipped into second place by the Danes for landing volumes and the by Greeks for vessel numbers." This advocacy site mentions Galicia, the Basque ports and Lanzarote (the last for sardines). I'll try and look some more refs up when I have a minute. Itsmejudith (talk) 16:42, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Duoduoduo --the Spanish fishing fleet has been involved in several notorious incidents, such as the Turbot War... AnonMoos (talk) 01:26, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

OP here. Thank you for your answers. I had indeed gained the impression that Galicia, Eskuria and Lanzarote might be very important. I had simply not thought to look at the main country website for Portugal, thinking these secrets would be buried far deeper in the internet. This should be sufficient information for me. 88.89.136.248 (talk) 18:53, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

• • OP here: *Euskadi — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.89.136.248 (talk) 19:09, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

If you ask any Cornish or Irish fisherman where "their vast distant fishing fleet (is) 'local' to" they'll probably say "here". [1] [2] [3] [4] Alansplodge (talk) 20:39, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

I know what you're getting at, Alan, but distant fishing fleets are all based in a certain port and travel vast distances. It started with the Basques and the English going to the Grand Banks from the 15th century or so. The other kind of fishing is inshore fishing (article needed), where boats go out only a short distance and return within 24 hours with a fresh catch. Itsmejudith (talk) 21:45, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

I'm afraid I was having a rant, but the whole system seems to be grossly wasteful and unfair with only the Spanish benefitting. Alansplodge (talk) 12:21, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

When the French started exploring Canada for furs, they were surprised to learn some of the Algonquian Indians understood Basque and spoke an Algonquian–Basque pidgin. This was from contact with the Basque fisherman. μηδείς (talk) 00:54, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

Is Christianity just more intertwined in African American culture?

Is Christianity just more intertwined in African American culture, or are African Americans just more religious than white people? I recently watched a PBS documentary about African Americans, and one scene talked about how Europeans could not enslave other Europeans because Europeans were perceived to be Christian, and Christians could not enslave other Christians. In that case, the loophole would be: if you convert to Christianity, then you can be free, right? I suppose this was where the skin color/racial issue came about. Is African American spirituality (mainly Christianity) a large part of African American culture due to struggles during the slave years of the United States? (Nowadays, you hear African American music like Where is the love? by Black Eyed Peas and it can be loaded with Christian references.) 140.254.227.56 (talk) 14:24, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Atlantic slave trade and abolition discusses how religion was used both for and against slavery.

Another factor in your question is the way that minorities or groups who perceive themselves to be disadvantaged, may use their distinctive style of worship as a symbol of their own identity. An extreme example is The Troubles in Northern Ireland that we have been discussing above; I'm not sure that many of the violent characters that drove the struggle are particularly devout Christians, but they define themselves and their community in terms of their faith that includes their friends but excludes their enemies. Alansplodge (talk) 17:03, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Christianity in the United States may give you some insight. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:05, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

• You seem to be talking about differences in cultural expression. Southern and black Christian denominations tend to be very expressive in worship, with song and dance and call-and-response preaching styles, with Gospel music, and speaking in tongues. Italians and Irish tend to be more religious in a quiet, intense, superstitious sort of way. I have in all my life never heard a congregant speak out or anyone make any spontaneous declaration a a Roman or Byzantine Catholic church. Only once, 30 years ago, was there ever applause at my local parish. The priest announced the mortgage on the church had been paid off. One person clapped, and there was some stunned reaction to this. Then the priest said "go ahead, applaud" and there was a standing ovation. μηδείς (talk) 19:13, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
• Christiantity is very important in White Anglo-Saxon Protestant culture ... Its just that "WASPs" tend not to be outwardly expressive about it. It's considered gauche to outwardly religious. Inwardly religious is fine. Blueboar (talk) 19:35, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

• For an inside view with the question see Intercession. Although this theme is more relevant to Catholicism and the Eastern species of Christianism than to its other branches, the point of agreement and understanding between Christians (which you called "loophole") depends on it, and most religious abolutionists understood it for this. Calvinists tended to be more practical indeed, but not excluding the agreement. The non-abstract aspect of the question is that someone - the more religiously aware - have to be able to intercede. Mysticism is an other question. --Askedonty (talk) 20:18, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

It seems to be a basic premise of Christianity, from the initial comments of Jesus about Pharisees, that it is not possible to tell how religious someone is from their observances. And everyone's opinion is different. Citing a "fruit of the tree" principle I might say that groups like the SNCC and Martin Luther King, Jr., the abolitionists, liberation theology, even the Deism of Thomas Jefferson would represent highlights of the Christian philosophy --- but that would be more a statement about me than about them. But surely there are good and bad people of all races. Wnt (talk) 02:03, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

African American Christians could still be slaves, couldn't they? There was no magic solution, you couldn't be freed just by being Christian, as far as I understand. However, this actually was the case in certain places in the Middle Ages - Christians couldn't be enslaved, and converting to Christianity (if you were a Muslim/Jewish/pagan slave) would automatically set you free. (Theoretically, anyway.) Adam Bishop (talk) 10:07, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

Andrew Brown

Are Andrew Brown (writer) and Andrew Brown (media strategist) the same personn? thanks, --88.160.13.244 (talk) 16:02, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Interesting question, reading both wikiarticles carefully there are some general similarities but I would say no they are different people. ^{Market St.⧏} _{⧐ Diamond Way} 19:45, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

No, different people. Both "Andrew" and "Brown" are fairly common names, so the coincidence of names+dates isn't that remarkable. Andrew Gray (talk) 20:15, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Notability of same age/name/profession would be at least a little remarkable. ^{Market St.⧏} _{⧐ Diamond Way} 21:32, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Given that one self-identifies as English, and the other is Gordon Brown's brother... No. Ghmyrtle (talk) 21:53, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

The one that "self-identifies as English" has Wikipedia listing his "nationality" as something not "English" (infobox). Given that the other's brother was PM Brown it seems both have claimed to be British. ^{Market St.⧏} _{⧐ Diamond Way} 21:59, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

As Gordon Brown's father was a Church of Scotland minister in Kirkcaldy, the it seems unlikely that his brother was born in London, although not impossible I suppose. Alansplodge (talk) 07:36, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

Isn't there a pair of cricket players with the same name and same year of birth that both have articles? I seem to recall seeing a pairing like that where the disambiguation got to be quite tricky. I think they were either born or played in the 19th century. Anyone recall this? A quick googling didn't help me. Matt Deres (talk) 15:43, 27 October 2013 (UTC)