Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2014 March 12

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March 12

why does canada allow its ice hockey skaters to be so unprofessional as to fight?

why does canada allow its ice hockey skaters to be so unprofessional as to physically fight? This is not sanctioned in any other sport and is ridiculous. Aren't these people professionals? 212.96.61.236 (talk) 22:47, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

They are not "allowed to fight". Fighting leads to penalties of various kinds, depending on the severity of it, just as in any other sport. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:54, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

Tradition. 70.174.141.142 (talk) 22:58, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

It's part of the game, although this is not official. OsmanRF34 (talk) 23:09, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

You do realize, that merely because you speak of something in a derisive tone, it doesn't actually change the nature of the thing of which you are speaking? If you want to know more about fighting in ice hockey, you can read the Wikipedia article titled fighting in ice hockey. We aren't really here to affirm your feelings, or to argue with you over their validity. We can provide historical and traditional context for the existence of fighting, but that's about it. --Jayron32 23:14, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

Players from other countries fight too... Adam Bishop (talk) 00:44, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

Yes, but as noted in the Wikipedia article cited above, when they do, they are ejected from the game immediately, and face multi-game suspensions for doing so. In most North American professional leagues, they usually get a 5-minute penalty then can return to the ice. The difference in how professional leagues in other nations deal with fighting in hockey is real. Does that mean that there are never any fights in DEL or Elitserien or leagues like that? No, it doesn't. However, fights are much rarer; probably on par with fights in leagues like the NBA where the penalty for fighting is severe enough to deter it. The difference in fighting between European leagues and North American leagues is real, and the OP is right for noting such a difference. The only objection to make is that we should not make normative judgments one way or the other. --Jayron32 00:51, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

Fighting is, sadly, all too common in Australian rules football. While there are penalties, as often as not they're not imposed. By no means is it certain that the participants will be "ejected from the game immediately, and face multi-game suspensions". -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 01:15, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

That's not what I mean...I mean the NHL is not made up solely of Canadians. A Russian or an American gets five for fighting just like a Canadian. Adam Bishop (talk) 08:55, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

And on reflection, it's not about what Canada does or doesn't "allow". It's what the National Hockey League "allows", i.e. what its rules are. The rules are not written by the country, but rather by the leagues. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:53, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

The national government could certainly stop it if they wanted. For example, announcing that "anyone who starts a fight during a game will be arrested immediately for assault" would put an end to it right quickly. Or they could give the league some time to stop the fighting by threatening to take action if they don't. I believe an approach similar to this was taken to end steroid use in US baseball (where the leagues similarly turned a blind eye to increase profits). StuRat (talk) 01:51, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

If our government (especially this one) so much as hinted at banning hockey, they'd almost certainly be lynched for treason. Even fiddling with it is political suicide. InedibleHulk (talk) 02:20, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

Most hockey fights are actually pretty tame. There are occasional injuries, as with other sports. Far as I know, there's no serious discussion about the government "banning" hockey or trying to nanny the sport in some way. And comparing to steroids is not really propr, as the steroids the athletes have used are illegal. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 07:11, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

Assault is illegal, too, especially assault with intent to cause great bodily harm. It's only the state and local governments deciding not to prosecute assaults that happen during hockey which allows it to continue. StuRat (talk) 19:01, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

Not sure about the US state laws, but Canadian police don't prosecute because consentual fighting isn't assault. But yes, pulling a Bertuzzi can be. InedibleHulk (talk) 03:21, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

That law only seems to protect the person who is assaulted, if he fights back. The person who throws the first punch could still be charged. StuRat (talk) 17:17, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

Blame Rob Ray for the tameness. They want to hurt each other, but like hopelessly tangled moose. Still a few slobberknockers, but they're much rarer. Not legally assault if two people consent. Not even disorderly conduct, because it's not public space. InedibleHulk (talk) 07:52, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

As for not being sanctioned in any other sport, were Georges St. Pierre and Razor Ruddock not professionals? Anyway, without fighting in hockey, huge defenseman could rough up tiny star scorers without fear of retribution. If that happens, scoring drops. If scoring and fighting drops, ratings and attendance drop.InedibleHulk (talk) 01:21, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

It's about what the fans want to see. HiLo48 (talk) 01:23, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

I was edit conflicted there. Sorry for making it seem like you repeated or affirmed me. You were first. InedibleHulk (talk) 01:26, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

Yes, if the leagues set penalties low enough or don't enforce them, then they are not only allowing fights, but encouraging them. Note that the fights are televised, but wouldn't be if they didn't think it would garner more viewers.

So then, why do North American hockey fans want to watch players fighting ? One reason might be the blue-collar appeal of hockey in NA. "Gentlemen's sports" like golf, tennis, and cricket, presumably are less tolerant of fighting players. Is hockey more of a gentleman's sport outside NA ? StuRat (talk) 01:45, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

I dunno. Is this a gentleman? Jim Cornette, maybe? This guy?InedibleHulk (talk) 02:10, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

Personally, I don't want to see all players fighting. Only the fighters. There's definite entertainment value in skating, puckhandling and shooting, too, and that shouldn't be screwed up by swollen eyes and broken hands. As to why, it's also why I watch UFC. 30% bloodlust, 70% investment in characters juxtaposed in one-on-one competition, legally and naturally fueled by adrenaline boosts. When things like cordiality and team reliance go out the window, it's a purer athletic contest. InedibleHulk (talk) 02:03, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

The tradition of fighting in hockey is strong enough for Rodney Dangerfield to have noted "I went to a fight the other night and a hockey game broke out." Acroterion (talk) 02:16, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

Hockey players reach 30mph, right? Even Usain Bolt can only reach 28mph. That's faster than football. And on hard ice. Do they even wear pads (besides the goalies)? So fistfighting keeps huge, low hockey-skill players from bodyslamming Wayne Gretsky at the speed of a subway train. Of course they could actually start calling fouls, but they'd rather have a chivalrous gang-like solution (no sticks, no kicks, no helmets, no gloves, no sucker punches, no unwilling opponents). I believe I once read that if they made the rinks wider (to the width of a non-North American rink) the fighters would be out of a job due to insufficient playing ability. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 04:24, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

There are penalties, including for charging. The last few years, headshots are excessively frowned upon. Skaters wear a variety of protective ice hockey equipment. And there are many goons quite good at the other stuff. Gordie Howe has a hat trick named after him. InedibleHulk (talk) 05:21, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

The protective gear typically worn by players is discussed in Ice hockey equipment. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 07:07, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

The fighting will start to disappear when mothers start sending their sons to "less violent" sports. HiLo48 (talk) 08:10, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

Even minor league ballet audiences love a scrap. InedibleHulk (talk) 08:45, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

InedibleHulk, the penalties aren't real penalties (read: a joke) because you still need fighting to do some of their job. Whether running into players at full-speed is sufficiently discouraged by the penalties or not (I didn't know there were different kinds of body-checks, not all legal, I just thought rhe threat of fighting had kept the speed in check) there would clearly be an unacceptable level of roughness if the fighting punishment was strengthened (multi-game suspensions and large fines) but the other penalties were not, ergo the other penalties are too weak. Also, your article and it's comments almost agrees with me. The gist of the article I poorly remember might've just been that widening the rink would stack the deck against enforcers' existance, not eliminate them entirely. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 05:43, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

Plenty of ways to hit someone illegally, with various consequences. See Section 6 of the rulebook. Whether they're too strict or too loose is a matter of preference, I suppose. But a penalty or fine is never going to send the same message a good punching will.

And yeah, I didn't mean to imply there aren't pure toothless aggression guys. Many of those, too. But it's not black-and-white. InedibleHulk (talk) 08:21, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

• They fight because no one ever charges them with assault or other criminal charges. Fighting would stop almost entirely if it led to a jail sentence. Ex-convict ex-hockey players don't have much in the way of prospects. μηδείς (talk) 18:36, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

• I take it you missed it when I said the exact same thing above. StuRat (talk) 19:03, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

And you missed where I said it isn't illegal, immediately below. While we're complaining, I also mentioned the ice hockey equipment, Bugs. All good, though. InedibleHulk (talk) 03:28, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

When I post with a bullet and unindented at the bottom of a thread, it means my comment is not in response to those above me. μηδείς (talk) 19:42, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

Sorry. I was trying to respond to Stu, but I tend to not notice asterisks on the edit page. So didn't indent hard enough. I normally fix them, but just didn't this time. Should have stressed you, too. I'll go sit in the box for two minutes. Well, actually longer. Gotta watch some human cockfighting. Go Hendricks! InedibleHulk (talk) 01:53, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

I responded to the legality elsewhere in this Q. StuRat (talk) 22:22, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

Here's an analysis of some of the legal questions raised about rough hockey over the years (-2002). And here is much more similar stuff. InedibleHulk (talk) 03:57, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

• Normally the guys agree to fight each other (and thus as such assault etc normally isn't the issue - or we would have no UFC or boxing!) - the few times that weren't the case the league came down rather hard on them. Shawn Thornton got a 15-game suspension, where as Todd Bertuzzi–Steve Moore incident is the prime example of why there's a huge deterrent to fighting the unwilling. (If you don't know that incident: Bertuzzi sucker-punched Moore who was not expecting it, and the punch ended Moore's playing career. Bertuzzi was suspended for 13 regular season games + 7 postseason games. The suspension looks on paper to be short only because of the 2004–05 NHL lockout - the international federation prevented Bertuzzi from playing internationally, basically costing him a full season.) - Penwhale | ^{dance in the air and follow his steps} 04:05, 16 March 2014 (UTC)