Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2015 April 25

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April 25

Art object identification

I have exhausted my web search trying to identify a small art object in my possession. I can't work out how to download the 2 images I have to help with this identification so I will describe it and if you think you can help please email me directly and I will send you the images. Or someone can walk me through the process of downloading my 2 jpegs.

The object is small, approximately 85mm long by 60mm wide. It is shaped in a tear drop and is a shallow dish. It is made from a base metal. The dish side is enameled with gold striations. It predates 1945. I know that because it was gifted to me by a German architect who served in Italy during WW2. That is why I think it is from Italy. There is a makers mark on the bottom. I haven't been able to find that mark to verify its origin. The mark is a 'V' 'N' 'F' astride a bar with 3 branches. I have not been able to find anything that resembles this object in any search I have made. If you think you know what it is and what its purpose was I will send you some images to confirm that.

Thanks Jdb3853 (talk) 02:22, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

(Lowercased; Baseball Bugs's joke left as-is -- BenRG (talk) 18:00, 25 April 2015 (UTC))

COULD YOU UPLOAD A PICTURE OF IT, EITHER TO HERE OR TO AN IMAGE-HOSTING SITE? ←BASEBALL BUGS→ 03:23, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

See this tutorial on how to upload images online. As a side note: writing in all capital letters on wikipedia, or anywhere online, is considered equivalent to shouting in real life and therefore rude. Try using normal syntax in future posts. Abecedare (talk) 06:18, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

• And it's unnecessarily harder to read. —Tamfang (talk) 10:26, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

Sounds like the sort of dish that housewives put their rings into before doing the washing up. We have an article on Paolo De Poli who copied the far-eastern method of enamel on copper and since much of his designs was manufactured by VNF that probably nails it. --Aspro (talk) 13:18, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

Could it be a spoon rest: [1] ? Those are used to place a stirring spoon, while cooking, when not in use, so as to not get germs from the counter on the spoon, or food on the counter. StuRat (talk) 15:56, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

I have two thoughts, but both rather depend on size of object. The first is a quaich, used in Scotland to taste whisky from. The second is a tea caddy spoon. The first one should be of the order of 3 - 4 inches across, but the second should only be about 2 inches by 1 inch. --TammyMoet (talk) 17:56, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

I hope this is correct. My apologies for the cap letters. My daughter taught me better! These are the direct image links requested. Do they confirm or deny your ideas?

<http://i.imgur.com/ey4UrIB.jpg> <http://i.imgur.com/vHCUkLT.jpg>Jdb3853 (talk) 05:09, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

Great images, I'd say that was far too ornate for any kitchenware. It looks like a trinket dish or a pin dish or a bon-bon dish. More interesting is the maker's mark. You didn't mention that below the mark is MAD NJ which seems to put the maker in New Jersey. My suggestion is that you take it to either an antiques shop or an auction house that deals with antiques and seek their advice, but hopefully somebody here will enlighten you. Richard Avery (talk) 07:29, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

Try googling "vnf enamel" and you'll see several enamel bowls, which are made in Italy, that are in a silimar style to yours. --TrogWoolley (talk) 16:19, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

Instead of "MAD NJ" I read what I assume to be an incomplete stamp saying "MAD(E) IN J(APAN)". That probably means it's not very valuable. (Yes, ancient Japanese artifacts are quite valuable, but more recent trinkets tend to have "MADE IN JAPAN" stamped in English.) As for what it is, looking at the pics I'd guess it's a candy dish. StuRat (talk) 21:10, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

All the other VNF enamelware that I found online was made in Italy, so I suspect that some random scratches are making it look like a "J". But I agree, nothing I have found so far has had a sale price much above USD20. Alansplodge (talk) 22:23, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

How about a Japanese rip-off of an Italian original ? StuRat (talk) 03:42, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

Ihank you for all of your suggestions. I am uploading another image of the makers mark. The timeline wouldn't suggest it is Japanese. I received this gift in 1972. The German Architect that gifted it to me had owned it for some 30 years. Under an oblique light and with a magnifying glass you can better see the makers mark. The image I have uploaded will assist in that. Apologies for the resolution.

<http://i.imgur.com/52iA1Y2.jpg>Jdb3853 (talk) 18:04, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

Pretty certain the mark is "Made in Italy". --Phil Holmes (talk) 10:23, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

Again, thank you for your help. I have searched Paolo de Pali images with no luck. I have also tried to find some history on the VNF trademark but have come up empty. I am uploading one last image to illustrate a technique the artist used. There are striations in the dish that are gold. How this was done during manufacture and enameling is another mystery. It would suggest that this not an inexpensive piece.

<http://i.imgur.com/wgSozu6.jpg>Jdb3853 (talk) 05:16, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

Dignity, Glory & Honour

Hi there!
What's the difference between dignity, glory and honour?
Thank you for the discussion!
Calviin 19 (talk) 11:47, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

Have you checked dictionaries for possible (multiple) translations into your mother tongues (French + German) and read about how some of the concepts behind the words are used in different fields (philosophy, religion, law, everyday speech, ...)? Or could you give some context? Kavod HaBriyot, for example, can mean all three, in a sense. ---Sluzzelin talk 21:57, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

That's the point. I want it in a general sense and in many specific senses. So a dictionnary isn't enough good for that and I don't want any traduction for those words.--Calviin 19 (talk) 13:37, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

Offering many specific senses of a word is what good dictionaries do; have a look at these: glory, honour, dignity. And if you go to a library with an Oxford English Dictionary it will similarly show many senses, along with sample sentences in English. 184.147.117.34 (talk) 15:56, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

You can have dignity by yourself. Someone else needs to recognize your dignity to honour it. When many people honour you, you have glory. InedibleHulk (talk) 01:03, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

There are many possibilities to give an explanation of the meanings of those words.--Calviin 19 (talk) 15:23, 2 May 2015 (UTC)

Cheshire and Flintshire historic placenames

Earl of Chester#Revenues lists various manors that contributed to the income of the earldom in 1714. Two I can't identify are "Medywick" (in Cheshire) and "Vayvol" (in Flintshire). Can anyone fill in these gaps? Thanks. (Incidentally, "Colshil" is now a tiny little place on the A548, which doesn't have its own article - it was obviously much more significant 300 years ago). Tevildo (talk) 21:40, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

The history of Cheshire: containing King's Vale-royal entire, Volume 2 by Daniel King, William Smith etc. has a list which has "Farm of the town of Medwick" although I still haven't been able to find it. The same list also has ""Vayvol" which looks like an English version of a Welsh name. No luck with that so far. Alansplodge (talk) 22:28, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the reference - both this book and our article cite Dodderidge (1714), and the figures are in agreement, if not the names. I don't suppose "Medwick" might be Middlewich? Etymologically it's reasonable, but it's a rather greater change than the other names in question, especially considering it was "Mildestvich" in the Domesday Book, closer to "Middlewich" than "Medwick" is. I'm sure our combined resources will produce something. Tevildo (talk) 23:07, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

Although the linked work is referring to the reign of King Edward III unless I'm reading it incorrectly. Alansplodge (talk) 00:04, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

That's true - I've fixed the date in the article. Tevildo (talk) 07:58, 26 April 2015 (UTC)