Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2015 March 27

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March 27

Panagia Church territory in Farsala

I'm having a hard time trying to geolocate the area where the fragment of the The Exaltation of the Flower was found. Léon Heuzey said he discovered it embedded in the walls of a church in a neighborhood called "Paleo-Loutro" in Farsala.[1][2] I suspect that name has been changed or is spelled wrong, or the translation is bad, because I can't find anything by that name. However, I did find an archaeologist who said the piece was "found in the Panagia Church territory".[3] It looks the archaeologist is referring to the Panagia Demerliotissa, but I don't know for sure.[4] Does anyone have any ideas? Viriditas (talk) 09:48, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Just one point, the Panagia Demerliotissa church can't be the one; it's in the village of Stavros, some 15 km west of the town of Farsala. Still looking for further hints. "Palaeo-Loutro", in the mid-19th century, could refer to all sorts of things and may very well no longer be common as a name; more likely than not it was simply an area known locally as the location of an old hamam. "Panagia", in turn, is of course also an extremely common name for a church; you'd find one in pretty much any village. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:34, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

From what I've read so far, Paleo-Loutro might be a reference to an area containing the ruins of old Roman or Turkish baths within Farsala. I've seen passing references. Viriditas (talk) 03:46, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

Here is an early 19th century panorama of Farsala, by E. Simone. ( deceased 1830 ) A "lower town" could possibly exist outside of the view to the right ( the picture is looking South. ) We are some 40 years later but an hypothesis could also be made that the tale is partially made up, in order to tell the context while not exposing some of the actual protagonists. This is a scenario that can sometimes be found in travel literature from that era. --Askedonty (talk) 09:58, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

This is not answering to the question but a place named Paleo-Loutro can be found on the internet. It also has an article in Wikipedia: Palaio Loutro, however it is located not very far from Sparta so it has to be a different place. Our article states that "palaio loutro" means "old bath". Perhaps this has been determining which area to look for in Farsala. --Askedonty (talk) 11:09, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. That will at least give me something to go on. Also, I've been having fun working with street view, looking around the area. :) Viriditas (talk) 20:31, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Then you must have seen the same than I just did. Léon Heuzey writes about the western part of the city and they had to avoid the bazaar, there is a Market Street somewhere the left on the map and then a probable Panagia further to the left. --Askedonty (talk) 21:01, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Are you referring to the large church on the hill? Viriditas (talk) 21:13, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

I don't know. On [5] some places of interest that are marked. That's the view I get using street view. --Askedonty (talk) 21:18, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

It's quite possible that the church no longer exists? OR, but the Greek Wikipedia article on Farsala (per the google translatation) says the town was damaged in the second world war and in earthquakes after 1950 and in the last 30 years, many old buildings have been demolished.

P.S. on a hill doesn't seem right since Heuzey in your first link refers to the lower town?184.147.117.34 (talk) 22:10, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

According to this [6] local website, the church known as "Panagia" to locals of Farsala today would be the one seen on the photo with the caption "Πάρκο δίπλα στην εκκλησία της Παναγίας". That photo can be identified on Google maps with a location just north of Thetidos Street, at 39.2960733°N 22.3767442°E / 39.2960733; 22.3767442. It's the one seen in Askedonty's Google street view link too. That may well match the description of "western part of the lower town", although it seems to be further west than the boundaries of the ancient city according to the diagrams seen here [7], and may well be outside of what was the town area in the 19th century. The present church is also certainly bigger and more modern than the one referred to in Heuzey's article from 1868, and the area certainly doesn't look like preserving anything of 19th-century old-town architecture. Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:07, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

I don't know how helpful this is, but The Princeton Encyclopedia of Classical Sites has the following:

Very few ancient remains are to be seen in the city. Just above and to the S of the Apidanos spring, at the W side of the city is a mound on which is a Church of Haghios Paraskevi (earlier Fetiye Cami). The city wall runs along the edge of this mound, and traces of a square tower could be seen (1914). Test trenches here in 1964 turned up prehistoric sherds from the Neolithic period on, and through archaic to Roman, and some ancient remains including a poros capital of Early Classical times. Here or nearby was a Temple of Zeus Thaulios, to whom an inscription has been found. In the center of the modern town in the main plateia were found the foundations of a square building (13 x 13 m) with an inner peristyle court, of the 4th-3d c. B.C. Doric and Ionic architectural fragments from it are in the Volo Museum. In the Kurçunli Cami N of the plateia were to be seen (1914) some remains of an ancient temple. In the Varusi quarter, just above the plain by the E wall, inscriptions to and a head of Asklepios have been found, and a Hellenistic water channel. On the hill in 1966 fragments of 5th c. B.C. terracotta protomes turned up, probably of Demeter and Kore. Twenty minutes W of the city a Hellenic wall (neither end visible), perhaps part of a temple peribolos, was seen in 1952.[8]

Two of the sources cited above are F. Stählin, Pharsalos (1914) and H. Biesantz, Die Thessalischen Grabreliefs (1965). Interestingly enough, I believe Biesantz (1965) might have the answer as it apparently references the work directly. I don't have access to it, but the full source is Biesantz, Hagen. (1965). Die thessalischen Grabreliefs. Studien Zur Nordgriechischen Kunst. Mainz: Philip von Zabern. OCLC 645403304. Does anyone have access to the Biesantz source? I'm not sure if these page numbers are correct, but the above cites pp. 101-108. Viriditas (talk) 04:01, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

Doublûres of Characters

In this picture, a caricature by James Gillray, seven leading Whigs are ridiculed by being shown as kind-hearted in public but essentially villainous. I have some problems with identification. The NPG (http://www.npg.org.uk/collections/search/portrait/mw62272) lists the following seven:

• Francis Russell, 5th Duke of Bedford
• Francis Burdett
• Edward Smith-Stanley, 12th Earl of Derby
• Charles James Fox
• Charles Howard, 11th Duke of Norfolk
• Richard Brinsley Sheridan
• George Tierney

They are, however, ordered alphabetically, not the way they appear in the picture. I is obviously Fox, while IV is most likely Tierney, V is Burdett and VII is Bedford. Still, I am not able to assign Derby, Norfolk and Sheridan to II, III and VI, so I would appreciate some help in that. --The Theosophist (talk) 18:17, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Sheridan is II (see, for example, Uncorking Old Sherry), Norfolk is III (see, for example, A Norfolk Dumpling] and Derby is VI (see, for example, Peep at Christies). Tevildo (talk) 18:47, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

@Tevildo: Thank you very much! --The Theosophist (talk) 20:33, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

England & Wales Common Law Offences

Are common law offences in E&W restricted to criminal matters, or do they also concern civil matters? Do any common law offences relating to criminal matters have maximum penalties of less than life in prison? I have never encountered any and am interested in the answer. Thanks. asyndeton talk 18:31, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Please see Common law offence#England and Wales, English Criminal Code, Law Commission (England and Wales) and Civil Procedure Rules, which may help with your research. --Jayron32 19:01, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

To answer the OP's specific questions - by definition, an "offence" is a criminal matter. For civil cases, tort is the appropriate term, and there are still many common-law (as opposed to statutory) torts. The only common-law offence (that I can find immediately) for which the penalty is not at large is contempt of court, the maximum sentence being set at two years by the Contempt of Court Act 1981. Note that the act does not create a new stautory offence; it defines additional rules and procedural requirements for prosecution of the still-extant common-law offence. Tevildo (talk) 19:11, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

See Contempt of Court Act 1981. If you WP:SOFIXIT, then Wikipedia will continue to Wikipedia:WHAAOE. --Shirt58 (talk) 11:04, 29 March 2015 (UTC).

Name this nasheed

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtZCeUgkvFM This is a faux-documentary, by Ahrar ash-Sham (I think). There is a song that starts at 10:12 into the video. Could someone identify it, or if it is not known, could an Arabic speaker write the lyrics so I can try to find it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Radioactivemutant (talk • contribs) 21:08, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Haven't figured out the song but this sounds like the full version. 88.112.50.121 (talk) 22:47, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Thanks a lot man Radioactivemutant (talk) 01:51, 28 March 2015 (UTC)