Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2015 November 21

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November 21

Why the Key of A?

I have been asked to explain the lyrics:

It was just another Saturday

and ev'rything was in the key of A

from a song by Florence and the Machine Patti Smith (oops), but I am clueless. Can someone like @JackofOz: suggest what might be meant here by referring to that key? Thanks. μηδείς (talk) 03:51, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

Musical key? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 04:35, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

The key of A is the only musical key whose name rhymes with Saturday... --Jayron32 04:39, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

I have nothing really to add on why A particularly, but I can't help but be reminded of a Doonesbury strip with Jimmy Thudpucker. His conversation with his guitarist went something like this (from memory; I can't seem to find it online):

Guitarist: What's wrong, Jim? Doesn't feel good in B flat?

Thudpucker: No, it's too formulaic. I want this to be archival. It should have a tricentennial sound.

G. Oh.

G. You mean like something in an F?

T. If you've got it.

--Trovatore (talk) 04:50, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

happy baby

Hey, please, don't kid (assuming you are kidding) because I am posting this for someone else who plays the guitar and sings and who asked me to ask this here, but who doesn't have www access; and I myself am musically illiterate, in the sense that I cannot read music or tell what key something is written in, even if I can sing in harmony with some sort of key, although I might be off by an octave or a third or a liter and a half. I mean really, folks, you are going to make opossums and chipmunks cry if you mock me so. I am not joking, I am off to look for crying mammals to post here. μηδείς (talk) 04:53, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

I for one wasn't mocking you, just saying something it reminded me of. I'm gonna go with Jayron's explanation, which sounds reasonable, plus there's a resonance of a grade of A or A-OK and stuff like that. I don't think there's any special emotional quality to the key of A per se, but maybe I'm just ignorant about it. --Trovatore (talk) 05:01, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

Okay, well, maybe I can accept that. Although I remember from studying music theory in the 80's that the different keys have different emotional nuances. In any case, the question is not for me, but for an innocent third party.... μηδείς (talk) 05:07, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

Different keys used to have different emotional nuances, prior to the widespread use of Equal temperament, which makes every key functionally identical in terms of the spacing and ratio of notes. Unless you believe Nigel Tufnel, who claimed D minor was the "saddest of all keys". It makes people weep instantly. --Jayron32 05:49, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

Even with equal temperament, keys hit the harmonics of an instrument in different ways. D makes a violin just sing, e.g., while E is much more mellow. And if you're not stuck with fixed tuning, you typically take liberties with the notes anyway: pushing that leading tone up a bit, or getting a really perfect fifth. -- Elphion (talk) 07:03, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

Scientists might pooh-pooh the idea, but many composers chose particular keys for their works because of their emotional aspects. That is, what those keys meant to the composer, subjectively. You can find a lot about this if you search. This is one person's idea, from Christian Schubart's Ideen zu einer Aesthetik der Tonkunst (1806). Here are some more, and this also gets into linking keys with colours (synaesthesia), but again, there's little agreement. (Oh, I see those links are also @ Key (music)). -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 07:19, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

The song is We Three. The key of A would normally refer to A major but here I think she means the key of A minor. Contact Basemetal here 08:43, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

Yes, that is the song, "We Three". I will pass along the above, and a copy of our article on key. μηδείς (talk) 17:37, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

• I have been instructed to thank everyone for their answers, and specifically to "ask @Basemetal: why does he think that PS was talking about Am? Is it because of the sadnesses of minor chords? Or something like that?" μηδείς (talk) 21:03, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

Exactly. Plus when she says "in the key of A" she suddenly hits an Am (coming from a sequence of major chords). It would be really weird if she thought at that moment "key of A major". Incidentally, she does the same thing at several other places in the song to accentuate the darkness and the sadness in what is already a sad song, by contrasting Am with a major chord. Since overall it is a sad song this is the kind of Saturday that would naturally fit it. The mood associated with the key of A major just doesn't. This said, most of the chords in the song are major. Overall it is something like a blues in the key of C major. Contact Basemetal here 23:16, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

I should not go here as I know nothing, but the famous allegretto of Symphony No. 7 (Beethoven) comes to mind. According to our article A minor is prone to be a sad key, though the above example seems to me to be more ... pensive. Movies like Zardoz use that song, but it's like curry, where anything you flavor with it will be curry. Wnt (talk) 04:20, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

I don't have innate perfect pitch (or at least I don't think I have), but I do have "learnt" perfect pitch, having been listening to and playing music since I was very young: I can generally identify a note or a key when it's played to me. What I can say is this: different keys have different emotions and meanings attached to them in my mind. I absolutely agree with the remarks made above about D minor and A minor. Mahler does D minor particularly well here, turning a happy children's song into a funeral march, partly just by the choice of key. I have a particular fondness for C, Cm, E♭, A♭, and Am myself, which for me always communicate particular emotions, which I've tried to summarise:

C - openness, simplicity, uprightness, honesty, simple happiness, wholesomeness

Cm - sadness, potentially deep sadness, but with the possibility of light at the end of the tunnel

E♭ - happiness, joy, being in the presence of greatness

A♭ - sadness, honour, depth, happiness through sacrifice

Am - neatness, honesty, cleanliness, happiness and sadness mixed together

I suspect I could probably define other keys similarly. Generally, increasing the number of sharps increases the brightness, but also the brittleness, of the emotion, while increasing the number of sharps increases the depth and profundity. As for the original question, I think the answer is this:

A - happiness and optimism, on the verge of becoming excessively so.

I don't know if this is much help, but that's how I would interpret the line mentioned. RomanSpa (talk) 10:33, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Bible translation that is gender neutral re God

ANy suggestions? Print or online acceptable, just want no 'Lord'/ 'He'/ 'His' etc 31.185.193.157 (talk) 09:03, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

"Our nonspecific gender parent, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name..." Nope. Doesn't work. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 09:05, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

Just "parent" would work there. StuRat (talk) 09:41, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

Our Gender in Bible translation article cites two examples. Google "gender neutral bible" and you'll find plenty more.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 09:24, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

English seems to lack good singular gender-neutral pronouns. There are plural gender-neutral words, like "they" and "their", which can be used as singular, when the context makes it obvious, but when applied to God, that could make it sound like you refer to multiple gods. Then there is "it", but that seems rude when applied to living things. StuRat (talk) 09:39, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

"Let us make man in our image..." How many gods are in that committee? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 10:37, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

Historically, probably in the 10s named ones, plus unnamed multitudes. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 10:53, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

English has more gender neutral pronouns than French or Spanish. --Jayron32 15:57, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

Really? Leave aside "they" (used for "he or she") which I doubt has made it yet into a Bible translation, what pronouns do you have in mind? Contact Basemetal here 16:38, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

English has two specific gender neutral pronouns: it and they. Spanish and French have no equivalent of those. Two is more than zero. --Jayron32 20:09, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

I had mentioned "they" but "it" is not gender neutral. "It" is for things that have no gender. E.g. "someone came while we were out and they carried away the refrigerator" never "someone came while we were out and it carried away the refrigerator". At least I've never heard the latter. Contact Basemetal here 20:32, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

First, remember that many languages use gender even for items like ships, cars or even refrigerators with non gender (under most definitions). Second and perhaps more importantly, while "it" is rarely used for humans, except occasionally recently born infants, foetuses and embryos, it's regularly used for other animals. A few people may do so because they think gender is a concept which doesn't apply to other animals, but for many people when they call a chimpanzee an "it" all they mean is they either don't know or remember the chimp's gender, or it's irrelevant or simply they find it more convient. Nil Einne (talk) 03:55, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

"There's someone at the door." "Who is it?" would be a perfectly normal conversation, I would have thought. And I'm sure I've heard people use "He (or She, or It)" when referring to a hypothetical God of indeterminate gender. Iapetus (talk) 16:54, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

French has gender-neutral pronouns - ce/cette, ça, cela, ceci. What about "on"? Adam Bishop (talk) 12:36, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

(Previously added to the completely wrong section, apologies) I think you can accept "Lord", it can be used and is used in a gender neutral manner, for example Lord of Mann --Lgriot (talk) 15:31, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Economics

an abbreviation "IBITDA", what does it stand for and mean? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.49.218.244 (talk) 15:43, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

The usual abbreviation is EBITDA, "Earnings before interest, taxes, depreciation, and amortization". Tevildo (talk) 15:47, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

Class/hierarchy in England

Was there a class or hierarchy system in England that separated the low class, from the middle and upper/nobility? I'm thinking something along the lines of the caste system in India, but not necessarily based on religion, but based upon other factors. And if so, when did this hierarchy/classism end? ScienceApe (talk) 20:29, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

There were social classes in all of Western Europe. See Nobility. However the system was not as rigid as in India since a commoner could become a noble. The privileges of the nobility disappeared, little by little in some countries (such as England) or brutally in others (such as France): see Nobility#Noble privileges. Contact Basemetal here 20:51, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

Our article Estates of the realm may be of help. It depends of course how far you want to go back – the structure of English society in 800AD wasn't the same as that in, say, 1300. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.11.50.58 (talk) 23:14, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

I suppose the OP means the more recent past. Say, how things changed in the last 100 years in the UK. It's not surprising, but wikipedia has an article on this topic: Social structure of the United Kingdom and Huge survey reveals seven social classes in UK seems interesting too. For a more humorous treatment, there is always the TV series Keeping Up Appearances.--Scicurious (talk) 00:50, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

Also A US view of the (British) class system may help and some interesting comments on Can someone explain the British class system?. Alansplodge (talk) 01:22, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

And of course how could we not include this: Class sketch --TammyMoet (talk) 20:05, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

Noblesse Oblige was the definitive guide for the last century ("Phone for the fish-knives, Norman"), and the works of George Mikes may also be usefully consulted. Tevildo (talk) 23:33, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

Or Tennyson's Lady Clara Vere de Vere (link):

Howe’er it be, it seems to me,

’Tis only noble to be good.

Kind hearts are more than coronets,

And simple faith than Norman blood.

And Kipling's Epitaphs of the War (link):

A Servant

We were together since the War began.

He was my servant — and the better man. 5.80.70.207 (talk) 09:57, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Nobles used to have specific legal privileges, beyond the mere benefits of being rich and important and knowing other rich and important people (for example, that the Barons should not be tried except by a special jury of other Barons who would understand). There have also been laws restricting what people could wear, depending on rank. Obligation to military service also depended on rank or worth (in certain eras, all freemen were expected to own arms and turn up when called to defend the land. The obligations (and penalty for ignoring them) increased with the value of your property). I'm not sure how many classes were specifically encoded in law though, and it undoubtedly varied from era to era (and depends on how you define "class"). Iapetus (talk) 17:01, 25 November 2015 (UTC)