Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2016 February 16

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February 16

What Bible version is used for the Roman Catholic Mass in the USA?

During the the Roman Catholic Mass in the USA, they often read passages from the Bible. I went to look up one of these passages, namely, Matthew 25:40. See this page: [1]. Apparently, there are many different Bibles, and many different Biblical translations. From that page for the translations of Matthew 25:40, there seem to be at least a dozen or more. Which is the "official" Bible translation that is used for the Roman Catholic Mass in the USA? Which Bible do they use? Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 06:04, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

They seem to endorse several translations. See here. Of those, I've heard of the New Revised Standard Version and the New American Bible. Our article on the later one says that it is the only translation approved for use at Mass in the diocese[...] of the United States. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 07:49, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

Thanks. So when I hear a reading from a Mass (in the USA) it must be coming from the New American Bible. Is that correct? Also: what is the Mass is in Canada? Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 08:30, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

Canada also uses the New Revised Standard Version. Adam Bishop (talk) 10:02, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

BTW, it seems that http://biblehub.com concentrates on protestant versions of the bible (and is heavy on King James). https://www.biblegateway.com/ also has the the two Catholic editions mentioned above. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 12:42, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

To clarify: there are indeed many different translations - vast numbers of them - but relatively few canons in modern use. That is to say, if you pick up a bible at random in a bookshop, the odds are the list of biblical books it contains will be one of a relatively small number. Almost all in the English-speaking world will be either a Protestant canon (no apocrypha), an Anglican canon (apocryphal books in their own section), or a Catholic canon (apocryphal books integrated with the Old Testament). Moreover, the latter two have essentially the same content, differently organised. There are exceptions; the NRSV 'Common Bible' edition contains a number of apocryphal books (and chapters, eg Psalm 151) which are specific to Eastern Orthodox or Oriental Orthodox canons and not often found in English translation. AlexTiefling (talk) 16:19, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

My main question is: if I want to "follow" (word-for-word) the Biblical readings that are contained within the Roman Catholic Mass (in the USA), what Bible should I purchase? Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 21:22, 18 February 2016 (UTC)

Unquestionably the New American Bible, then, if what's reported above is accurate. AlexTiefling (talk) 21:26, 18 February 2016 (UTC)

Thanks! Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 21:42, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

Boutros Boutros-Ghali: Why the repeated name?

Why did he have the same name twice? If they wanted to name him after his grandfather, couldn't they have just named him "Boutros Ghali?" Is the repetition of the last first name (added) and hyphenation a special Coptic custom when naming a child after an ancestor? It sounds like "John John Kennedy's" childhood nickname. Edison (talk) 17:57, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

What were his parents' full names? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:55, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

Apparently his father's first name was Yusef or Yousef, but I could not find their full names

But, why not? Why is this more unusual than William Carlos Williams or Sirhan B. Sirhan or Phillip Phillips or any of a number of other such names. --Jayron32 22:25, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

Did those persons name their children with hyphenation and a repetition of the first name as well? Like William William-Carlos-Williams, or Sirhan Sirhan-Bishara-Sirhan, or Philip Philip-Philips? Any of those cases might be relevant to the question. Otherwise the response seems off-topic. I did not just ask "Is there any other name with the same name in it twice somehow?" Edison (talk) 22:35, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

Hard to tell until or if we can find the names of his parents. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:29, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

This genealogy site claims his father's name was Youssef Boutros Ghali, not hyphenated. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:34, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

There is no reason for the naming conventions of the west to be applied around the world. Heck even in the west things like this happen. Do you remember this one Bugs? MarnetteD|Talk 23:47, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

Another thing to consider is that there can be nuances in one language and/or alphabet that do not come across when translated into English. In this case the Arabic writing does have the same name twice but, natrually, there is no hyphen. MarnetteD|Talk 00:03, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

List of people with reduplicated names, fwiw --Tagishsimon (talk) 00:17, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

Also see this old ref desk thread: [2] The question about his name seems to come up repeatedly. --Xuxl (talk) 09:09, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

Is a viable Palestinian State a possibility?

Basically, can Palestine become its own country? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cheesewu (talk • contribs) 20:56, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

They've been trying to achieve just exactly that for a long time now. The default assumption, shared by Palestine and her supporters, is that it's possible. There is no authoritative source that could ever prove it's not possible. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:03, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Well it's possible, of course, given some goodwill, but it seems unlikely to happen in the current political climate. Dbfirs 21:07, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

What would happen if they did? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cheesewu (talk • contribs) 21:12, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

Then they would become their own country. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:18, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

... but might not be recognised by some powerful countries. Dbfirs 21:25, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

Might be, or might not be. No way to know ahead of time. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:31, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

We do have an article on the Palestinian National Authority. Tevildo (talk) 22:59, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

Academically, yes: A country called Palestine could come into being, and it could be made up of territory currently under Israeli control. But I take it from the tone of your question that you want an opinion as to whether it's practically possible. That is, honestly, beyond the scope of the refdesk to answer. Suffice it to say that there are many works on the subject that you may find relevant. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 23:10, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

It already is, depending on who you ask. Adam Bishop (talk) 02:43, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

I'm going to assume you mean within the current borders. That is, the West Bank plus Gaza Strip. I'd say yes, if they cooperated with Israel instead of fighting it, then they could have a viable state. However, they are so economically dependent on Israel, that any strife between them would quickly collapse the Palestinian economy. Note that this level of economic dependency isn't unique, but being dependent on a nation with which they are almost at war is. The Israelis would also need to stop expanding settlements into Palestinian land. StuRat (talk) 03:52, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

The Palestinians might understandably have some reservations about cooperating with a country that occupies their land, discriminates against their citizens, structurally demolishes their economy and once in a while invades and destroys a few more bits of their infrastructure. Cooperation can't be a one way street...Fgf10 (talk) 23:38, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

If the state somehow became widely recognised and thereafter the Palestinians remain content with the partition and Israel respects its sovereignty, there is no particular reason why it would not be viable. There are other examples of smallish countries in the region that more or less function. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 10:02, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

In fact, the Palestinians were offered a state, but some Ara-fathead decided to hold out for a better deal. Clarityfiend (talk) 10:57, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

No, he merely wanted back the land that was stolen from his people. The 'deal' offered to him did not fully do this, so it was rightly rejected. Fgf10 (talk) 23:38, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

"Merely"? Also, I don't believe "stolen" is the right word when land changes hands by war. But those are tangents. The point is, the opportunity the OP was asking about was there for the taking, so the answer is yes, it at least was a possibility. Clarityfiend (talk) 03:27, 18 February 2016 (UTC)

If we somehow magic away the political problems (in Palestine, Israel, and the US), a Palestine state would still be problematic in the short term. The infrastructure and economy are largely in ruins, so they would need large amounts of international aid. Fgf10 (talk) 23:38, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

Opinions, predictions and debate
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Palestine could be a viable state iff Israel were to withdraw their settlers and military and stop blockading international trade and the movement of people. However, Israel has refused for the last 50 years to withdraw their forces unless the representatives of the Palestinian people agree to Israeli demands for Palestinian land and other concessions which have varied by decade. Sepsis II (talk) 00:48, 18 February 2016 (UTC) If Palistinians were to stop murdering Israeli citizens, that might help too. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:59, 18 February 2016 (UTC) If Israelis were to stop murdering Palestinian citizens, that might help too. Sepsis II (talk) 01:48, 18 February 2016 (UTC) And if no one's willing to break the cycle, it will go on forever and the lives of Palestinians will get worse and worse. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:38, 18 February 2016 (UTC) That's not how unbroken cycles work. Need highs and lows. You might be thinking of spirals. InedibleHulk (talk) 17:59, 18 February 2016 (UTC) I'm talking about the cycle of violence. Each side is constantly taking revenge on the other side. That's an endless loop, until someone decides to stop. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:50, 18 February 2016 (UTC) It is, in theory, presuming everybody plays by classic eye-for-an-eye rules. But Israel takes way more revenge than Palestine does, and is clearly up on points, seventy years in. If it weren't geopolitically incorrect, Israel could crush them all in weeks. No amount of effort from Palestine could bring the wheel back around, or even slow it down. Israel could also end it amicably. Palestine lacks that power, too. Real perpetual wars can exist, but only with balanced sides. If either is getting worse and worse (even slowly), that's a sure sign of linear progress. InedibleHulk (talk) 07:52, 19 February 2016 (UTC) The axiom "they are worse than we are" is part of what keeps the infinite loop going. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:07, 19 February 2016 (UTC)

This question clearly calls for opinions, which is not the purpose of the RefDesks. Notwithstanding this fact, contributors might have taken the opportunity to present what WP:reliable sources have to say on the matter, but that is not what has happened. Rather, with the exception of one internal link to one of our own articles, every single response here has represented personal speculation, now devolving into an argument representing the political stances of the users involved, in blatant violation of WP:NOTAFORUM (as is predictable when Wikipedia editors forget that they are not meant to be discussing their personal outlooks). As such, I'm hatting this discussion to put an end to the disruption/accusations of wrongdoing on the part of the political entities being judged here. If anyone feels that they can discuss this matter in a sourced, un-involved, non-forum-like manner, they can feel free to reverse my hatting without complaint from me, but I remind everyone that the Israeli-Palestine topic area is subject to WP:discretionary sanctions and the last thing the desks need is acrimony and long, protracted, non-productive arguments about who is really to blame for the conflict, especially when it isn't even serving an improvement to our encyclopedic content. Source or go home, folks. Snow ^{let's rap} 04:04, 18 February 2016 (UTC)

Snow Rise, I have unhatted this and moved your opinion to the bottom. It's perfectly possible to answer the question with references to reliable sources, no-one who has responded has any but that does not mean the question is defective. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 10:52, 18 February 2016 (UTC)

The OP may find the article at [3] interesting, as it addresses many of his/her questions as to a palestininan state's potential viability. Given that (s)he may wish to view other sample articles from stratfor in the future, I recommend using a mailinator email address to send the article to, rather than his/her normal address. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Eliyohub (talk • contribs) 14:30, 18 February 2016 (UTC)

Ironically enough, that site requires registration. What I would like to know is what Palestine would do or is doing economically? What do they manufacture and sell, to sustain their economy? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:32, 18 February 2016 (UTC)

That's an interesting question Baseball Bugs and quite a lot of work has been done on the topic. The World Bank has a couple of interesting papers on building economic sustainability in a future Palestinian state - Google "TOWARDS ECONOMIC SUSTAINABILITY OF A FUTURE PALESTINIAN STATE: PROMOTING PRIVATE SECTOR-LED GROWTH" and "The Underpinnings of the Future Palestinian State". Googling "Economic viability of future Palestinian state" will also turn up other books and papers of varying degrees of reliability. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 10:53, 19 February 2016 (UTC)

I believe they have some farms, with crops like olives and dates. Tourism would also be a possibility, as many interesting historic places or interest to many cultures and religions exist there, and the Mediterranean coast of Gaza Strip and the Dead Sea and Jordan River by the West Bank are also potentials sites for vacationers. Of course, tourism requires stability, so there would have to be peace before this could be a major source of revenue. See Economy of the Palestinian territories. StuRat (talk) 02:32, 22 February 2016 (UTC) StuRat (talk) 02:24, 22 February 2016 (UTC)