Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2016 June 28

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June 28

Weston, Newark, Nottinghamshire

What article should I read that would explain why so many place names in Britain have three components? Are these like county/municipality/neighbourhood? For example, we just say Woodbury, NJ or Hempstead, NY and not Woodbury, Gloucester, NJ or Hempstead, Nassau, NY (there are cases of overlap like Washington Township, NJ, of which I used to drive through two or three a day regularly--I think there are six in different counties in the state--but these are still only distinguished by postal code in most cases. Thanks. μηδείς (talk) 04:50, 28 June 2016 (UTC)

It's the other way around; neighbourhood/village - town/city - county. Fgf10 (talk) 06:41, 28 June 2016 (UTC)

Place names in this form are usually only used in postal addresses. The second name is the Post town, i.e. one of the main distribution centres for mail. According to Royal Mail it's not necessary to include the county name in an address. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 07:40, 28 June 2016 (UTC)

And giving more than one component is the exception not the rule in Britain, μηδείς. People would normally refer to that place as "Weston" to anybody familiar with the region, and as "Weston, near Newark" to anybody who wasn't. Even with places where there is ambiguity, we tend not to use a binomial name: if I needed to clarify, I would say "Richmond, in Yorkshire", in ordinary speech: only if I were giving an address, or dealing with a list of places, would I say "Richmond, Yorkshire" or "Richmond, North Yorkshire". --ColinFine (talk) 12:27, 28 June 2016 (UTC)

Then I would say "where's Newark?", "where's Richmond?, (50/50) "where's [English county]?". That is, if I knew it was British so it's not Newark, New Jersey, Newark, Delaware, or Richmond, Virginia. I couldn't find Nottinghamshire on a map. It's in the middle, right? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 01:38, 4 July 2016 (UTC)

Note that our article has Weston, Nottinghamshire and makes no mention of Newark. If you were posting a letter, as Colin says above, it would be helpful to include the postal town, but if you have the postcode correct, then it will get there without. Alansplodge (talk) 13:59, 28 June 2016 (UTC)

If you enter a Weston postcode in the Royal Mail postcode finder, it does return an address in Weston, Newark. As you say, it will likely be properly delivered with just a house number and postcode, but it's not the proper postal address. The correct one will include the postal town of Newark. Old folk like me still add the county by habit, and it is part of the address but not needed in the postal address.--Phil Holmes (talk) 14:17, 28 June 2016 (UTC)

It's an ironic question, because most British people find the American system of using two names exotic. I'd never say that I come from "London, England". We can get away with using one name because there's such massive diversity in our place names and also because there's usually enough context that even if you live in one of the few places with a popular name, like Newport, your listener would often know that you meant Newport in Cornwall without the need for disambiguation. People from very small towns that assume that their correspondent hasn't heard of often opt to name their nearest large town, instead of the inconvenience of the two place name. It seems that the American convention is to name both place and state, even when they come from the vastly pre-eminent place with that name (I'll refer you back to the "London, England"). I've not met anyone from Oklahoma City. Would they say they come from "Oklahoma City, Oklahoma" in the same way I've often heard "Chicago, Illinois"? --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 08:52, 29 June 2016 (UTC)

The analogy is not exact, because the states were in original conception sovereign entities, each with their own legislature, unlike the old counties of England, which do not have their own parliaments. Hence many names like Springfield are found in many states. (Australia has at least 6 Springfields, there are at least 40 in the US, and some states even have more than one!) Of course, if you are in the next town over from Springfield, Massachusetts, you will omit the state name in discussion. But the US is about 470 times the size of Wales, so some redundancy is to be expected. μηδείς (talk) 16:12, 29 June 2016 (UTC)

Agreed. Mind you, some Welsh place names would go down a storm over the pond. Like this one: Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 16:40, 29 June 2016 (UTC)

@Dweller: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg, Massachusetts. Native American for "[Lake] You fish on your side, I'll fish on my side, and nobody fishes in the middle". Used by some residents and the website of the town the lake is in despite being exaggerated/BS. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 01:09, 4 July 2016 (UTC)

Excellent! I hope Amunugama Rajapakse Rajakaruna Abeykoon Panditha Wasalamudiyanse Ralahamilage Ranjith Krishantha Bandara Amunugama visits. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 07:13, 4 July 2016 (UTC)

BTW, thew Welsh one is also "exaggerated/BS" being created as a 19th century publicity stunt by a railway company, anxious to sell more tickets to an otherwise unremarkable country station. Alansplodge (talk) 21:22, 4 July 2016 (UTC)

Homosexuality in Tudor England

Are there are any good reference works that give a history of homosexuality in Tudor England, particularly how it was conceptualised and what attitudes toward it were - I'm doing a research project on how Tudor England perceived the reign of Edward II, an allegedly gay monarch. Thus far, I've looked at Tudor Histories of England and how they describe him, I've started to look at Marlowe's Edward II, but I need more information on the historiography of homosexuality, and how it was perceived in that time frame. Thanks very much --Andrew 14:55, 28 June 2016 (UTC)

Some refs and comments at Edward_II_of_England#Piers_Gaveston_and_sexuality, two more at History_of_homosexuality#The_Middle_Ages, also note the historiagraphy section for Edward II. This [1] looks to be a well-curated bibliography. I can't tell how much this [2] book talks about Tudor England, you might be able to skim it on google books. 17:10, 28 June 2016 (UTC) SemanticMantis (talk) 20:05, 28 June 2016 (UTC)

• Wow, thank you, there are some excellent resources there for me to have a look at, the Harvard book has an entire chapter on homosexuality in post-reformation England --|||| — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mrandrewnohome (talk • contribs) 19:56, 28 June 2016 (UTC)

Assassination attempt on Shirley Waldemar Baker

Can someone help me find an extremely detailed account (available online) of the assassination attempt on Shirley Waldemar Baker with reference to the presence of the Crown Prince of Tonga?--KAVEBEAR (talk) 17:48, 28 June 2016 (UTC)

All I can see if the autobiog of Sioeli Nau here which gives a brief overview of events with no real firm information. Nanonic (talk) 18:15, 28 June 2016 (UTC)

Also - please do read the footnotes, they're quite interesting. Nanonic (talk) 18:18, 28 June 2016 (UTC)

@Nanoic: Can you link me to the footnotes? I am afraid the preview would end before I reach it.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 18:41, 28 June 2016 (UTC)

[3] and [4] should be good for you. Nanonic (talk) 19:08, 28 June 2016 (UTC)

Ignotus

Can anybody find more information on a man named Ignotus, who was a traveling correspondent for The New Zealand Herald in 1886; one of his articles here?--KAVEBEAR (talk) 18:39, 28 June 2016 (UTC)

Ignotus is Latin for "unknown". Was it common back then to use that for articles by anonymous authors, perhaps? --Or a specific individual journalist wishing to investigate incognito, such as a travel review columnist. --2606:A000:4C0C:E200:8909:BFA1:BA09:8D73 (talk) 18:55, 28 June 2016 (UTC)

Okay, thanks!--KAVEBEAR (talk) 19:01, 28 June 2016 (UTC)

This might give a clue as to why he wished to remain anonymous. http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&d=NZH18861213.2.8.3 Wymspen (talk) 17:00, 29 June 2016 (UTC)