Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2017 March 15

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March 15

Cook

Can someone help me find the earliest publications of Captain Cook's voyage? There are too many editions and I am not sure which is the original. Also can anybody help me find where did he say "For tame Animals they have Hogs, Fowls, and Dogs, the latter of which we learned to Eat from them, and few were there of us but what allow'd that a South Sea dog was next to an English Lamb"? From which voyage as this quote from? Thanks.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 06:26, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

So far as I can see the first publication was by Cook himself, both volumes in 1777[1][2][3][4] and the quotation you ask about is in his journal of the first voyage, published in 1790.[5] Gutenberg transcribes the 1893 edition.[6] Thincat (talk) 09:35, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

Otaheite Dog and Wolf

There are these two aquatints of Otaheite Dog and Wolf by Charles Catton the younger. Can anybody help me find additional clarifying sources for them? They don't seem right and I suspect they may be mislabeled Australian animals or the New Zealand kuri instead since wolves did not exist on Tahiti and the dog does not particularly resemble description of the native dogs.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 07:55, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

I've found a lovely (free) Google ebook of Catton's 1788 original illustrated book.[7] The wolf is on page 35 and the description solely relates to Great Britain. The Otaheite dog is on page 43 and credits Cook with the quotation you gave above. Cook called Tahiti "Otaheite". It seems Cook's and Catton's taxonomy hadn't quite caught up with those new-fangled Linnaean standards. Thincat (talk) 10:21, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

I've been grabbed by Catton's illustrations so I have uploaded them to commons at commons:Category:Charles Catton, Animals drawn from Nature Thincat (talk) 17:11, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

Thanks. Was Catton on the Cook voyages or did he create all of these prints from other eyewitness sketches?--KAVEBEAR (talk) 17:40, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

He used a number of specimens (dead and alive, I think) brought back by explorers and a lot are of native British animals. The book is online here but it's better as an ebook. Thincat (talk) 19:06, 15 March 2017 (UTC) Thincat (talk) 19:06, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

Origins of the Grove Encyclopedia series

This is not about the Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians, but about the plethora of other Grove Encyclopedias like The Grove Encyclopedia of Decorative Arts, Grove Dictionary of Materials and Techniques in Art or Grove Encyclopedia of American Art. All of them seem published by Oxford University Press, but they seem to have no connection to George Grove. I am guessing his original title was popular enough OUP decided to use his name for many other works, with no other rationale than "good marketing". I was thinking that they may merit an article about a reference work series, but I cannot find any reference for whether such series officially exists, how was it established, etc. I wonder if anyone here would have better luck? PS. If replying here, please WP:ECHO me, thanks. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 09:27, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

The Grove Dictionary of Art was first published in 1996 by Macmillan, who at that point also published the long standing New Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians. They appear to have considered it to be a similar work, so gave it the same well-known title. In 2003 Macmillan sold the rights to both Grove dictionaries to the OUP. What OUP has subsequently done is to take selections from those two massive works, and produce them as single books - which is the case of the encyclopedias you mention. They are not really new works. Wymspen (talk) 12:44, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

@Wymspen: Thanks. Do you have any references for that that we could use to start an article? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:46, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

Living in a permanent residence

Is a person legally obligated to live in a permanent residence? How do governments allow nomadic tribes live within their own country then? Are nomadic tribes allowed to cross country borders? Aside from nomadic tribes, does an individual have to live in some kind of permanent residence? While some individuals may not find the office room very comfortable, other individuals may make do with whatever they have. So, can an office worker just live inside the office building and sleep within his/her cubicle and cook food on a portable campstove? Or is the office worker obligated by law to find some kind of permanent residence (apartment, condo, house, automobile)? 50.4.236.254 (talk) 13:03, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

No fixed abode and the links at the bottom of the article answer your questions. Hofhof (talk) 13:57, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

Wow. That does answer my question. Short, but at least it provides the formal term and a brief description. 50.4.236.254 (talk) 14:05, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

There may not be rules that you must have a fixed residence - but in many countries there are rules about where people can and cannot live. The planning laws (building codes) may well make it illegal for someone to live in a building built as an office or a factory, just as they make it illegal to run some types of business from properties built as residential homes. Wymspen (talk) 14:38, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

"Sedentarization" or "forced sedentism of Bedouin has taken place over many decades in the mideast. It receives more coverage in Israel, though sometimes done more brutally in certain Arab countries. AnonMoos (talk) 14:57, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

Note that poor people, such as nomads, often live outside the law. Not so much breaking the law, as that the laws aren't written for them. Depending on the current government, they may just ignore the law when it comes to such people, and leave them alone, or they may prosecute and harass them. A related problem is that many poor people who do have homes don't have an official legal right to that home. This includes squatters, who moved into a vacant property, and also natives in nations which have been colonized, who always lived there, but were never granted a legal claim to their own land (this may overlap with squatting if there is an official owner of the land). StuRat (talk) 19:37, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

A mailbox has traditionally been one of the worst problems for the homeless. Without that, job offers, communications with the courts and government, etc., were difficult to receive. Post-office boxes are one cure for this, and general delivery was another, where mail would just be held at the post office until you collected it. The lack of a phone was also quite a problem, until recently, when low-priced cell phones have become available. StuRat (talk) 19:44, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

At least one domain registrar (I am looking at you, eNom) refuses to allow you to own a domain unless you [A] live at a fixed address with a street postal address (no PO boxes or general delivery) and [B] publish it for all of the world to see. As you can imagine, this policy is very unpopular with the homeless, those living in recreational vehicles, women who have stalkers, celebrities, etc. --Guy Macon (talk) 00:10, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

You also have to consider the agreement the owner and the occupier have entered into. It's commonplace for people to live "over the shop". Here's an extract from an application for a business grant:

* 12. Where a grant relates to capital expenditure the following are excluded:

purchasing land and/or existing buildings

ornamental features such as murals, flower beds, statues and pools/fountains

residential accommodation, whether included in a building used for business purposes or a separate building

any on-road vehicle

Conversely, a specifically residential agreement might state

Not carry on on the property any profession trade or business or let apartments or receive paying guests on the property or place or exhibit any notice board or notice on the property or use the property for any other purpose than that of a strictly private residence

A business licence may specifically exclude residential use, as in this example:

Mr. --- shall not allow any person to sleep in the Licensed Area and will use the Licensed Area only in connection with Mr. ---'s Business.

86.169.56.176 (talk) 19:16, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

• Look up Vagrancy_(people)#United_States. It is a very common theme in stories of 18th-early 20th century America to find that travellers without significant money, a fixed address, a job, or a train ticket are told by the town constable they are unwelcome after sunset. See also, highwayman. μηδείς (talk) 19:37, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

But people got hired differently too. In a time without electricity and big databases, people in Of Mice and Men and Riding Freedom just got hired directly by the employer. There was no middle man (aka Human Resources). A person with the intention of finding work will probably find work somewhere. However, there might be an issue that the person couldn't find anyone willing to hire him at sundown and then, if he didn't have any money for transportation, he would be stuck in the town! It might have been easier just to take the trade of your relative, as that's what Pip did in Great Expectations. 50.4..254 (talk) 23:27, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

What the heckare you talking about? Of my first nine employers in the last two centuries, eight of them employed me off the street as a walk-in. UPS and NY Tel were a bit choosier, but I got a paycheck within two weeks in every case, and proof of employment from each the day I was hired. My only trouble has been proving I am self-employed during periods when I worked as an academic. Of course at that point I was not living off the street either. μηδείς (talk) 01:40, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

Miller's thumb

I know it's a European bullhead, a fish. But I've heard it is something about the miller feeling the texture of grain between thumb and forefinger. What does it mean and where could I write about that at Wikipedia? Cheers,

(By the way, there might be something at Google Books, but I cannot access that. I looked elsewhere on the net, to no avail.)

Anna Frodesiak (talk) 23:35, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

I thought it was because they were an ugly fish with a wide, flattened head - as if a miller had squashed their thumb under a millstone. A more common expression might be a cobbler's thumb, but I'd always thought the "miller's thumb" expression had the same origin.Andy Dingley (talk) 23:48, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

Hi Andy. Yes, I think I remember my mum telling me when I was little that millers get a big, flat thumb from years of feeling grain. Similar. It seems like it has something to do with it being flat. I'd love a google books source to make a bit at the miller article about that and then hat the fish article. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 23:51, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

Do you mean "hat" or do you mean to add a link ? StuRat (talk) 00:14, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

Hi StuRat. Hatnote. But I see your point. Well, couldn't a hat go to a forthcoming section within miller? I mean, there must be numerous people who search miller's thumb and end up at the fish article when wanting to know about the thumb of a miller. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 01:28, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

I thought that was called a "dab", where at the top of the page it says something like "If you're looking for the thumb condition of a miller, see ....". See Mars for an example. StuRat (talk) 01:38, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

Miller's thumb (bullhead): "From its stocky, thumblike shape (the phrase miller's thumb was originally a folk expression referring to millers who gave short weight by tipping the scales with their thumbs)". yourdictionary.com - miller's thumb referenced to The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, 5th edition Copyright © 2013 by Houghton Mifflin Harcourt Publishing. More about miller's thumbs in their original context here including a quote from Geoffrey Chaucer. Alansplodge (talk) 12:51, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

"Speaking of the river Bullhead, commonly called the miller's thumb, Mr. Yarrell explains the application of the latter term on the authority of Mr Constable. 'The head of the fish is smooth, broad and rounded, and is said to exactly resemble in form of the thumb of a miller, as produced by a peculiar and constant action of the muscles, in the exercise of a particular and most important part of his occupation. It is well known that all the science and tact of a miller is directed so to regulate the machinery of his mill, that the meal produced shall be of the most valuable description that the operation of the grinding mill will permit, when performed under the most advantageous circumstances... his hand is constantly placed under the meal-spout to ascertain, by actual contact, the character and qualities of the meal produced. The thumb, by a particular movement, spreads the sample over the fingers, and hence has arisen the sayings of "worth a millers's thumb" and "an honest miller hath a golden thumb" in reference to the profit that is the reward of his skill. By this incessant action of the miller's thumb, a peculiarity in it's form is produced, which is said to exactly resemble the head of the fish...'". The Athenaeum, Issues 375-426 (London, 1835) p. 297. This is referenced to A History of British Fishes by William Yarrell (I could only find Volume 2, I think we need Volume 1). Alansplodge (talk) 14:05, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

Bingo User:Anna Frodesiak! A History of British Fishes Volume I (London, 1836) pp. 57-58. Presumably a later edition (the quote in The Athenaeum linked above is dated to the previous year) but the relevant text is all there. Yarrell claims that this account was told to him by John Constable, perhaps England's most famous painter, whose father was a miller. You could add this to the "European bullhead" article, a brief note in the "Description" section, or make a new section called "Origin of 'miller's thumb' name" or something similar. Alansplodge (talk) 18:03, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

Thank you so much, Alan. I cannot view Google books or archive.org, so I just added the google book ref you provided. Please give Miller#Miller' thumb a looksee. Also, if others would copyedit it, that would be great. I was never a wonderful writer, so please do what you can. Again, thank you!! Anna Frodesiak (talk) 05:41, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

Is the "Bingo" in response to Anna, Stu, Alan, or Alan? —Tamfang (talk) 02:23, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

It was an idiomatic way of saying that I had found the quotation that I was looking for. See Wikt:bingo#Interjection: "2. (informal) Used when finding what one has been looking for... or on successful completion of a task". Alansplodge (talk) 18:19, 19 March 2017 (UTC)

Hi StuRat. Those things at the top of the page are called hatnotes. A dab page is like Race. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 05:16, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

Thank you all. Miller now has a section and European bullhead now has a hatnote, but no mention of why one of its common names is "miller's thumb". Cheers. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 05:41, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

Why not ? StuRat (talk) 18:43, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

Hi StuRat. Because miller's thumb is just one of many common names. I didn't think it worth the mention. Best, Anna Frodesiak (talk) 04:58, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

I see. StuRat (talk) 05:17, 19 March 2017 (UTC)