Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2019 December 26

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December 26

Nietzsche Quote about Pre-Christian Religious Traditions

Good day!

I read some of Nietzsche’s works back in school and I remember a part where Nietzsche says that Pre-Christian religious traditions had no specific names for themselves, because these were just the religions which people had naturally back then. Does someone of you know in what book he states this?--2A02:120B:C3E7:E650:B8B8:F986:1D7A:31C4 (talk) 16:09, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

A fact which is relevant to this: There are no words with the meanings "religion" or "Judaism" in the text of the Hebrew Bible (original Jewish text of the Old Testament), though a kind of equivocal verb form occurs in the late Biblical Hebrew of Esther 8:17... AnonMoos (talk) 22:44, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

I think it would be hard to call that "a fact" except as trivia regarding the peculiarities of translation. 'Judeans' or 'Israelites' is near-synonymous with 'people who practice the religion of Judaism' in those times. The specific name for themselves might be rendered as 'fearer of YHWH' or whatever, but I don't see that as different except grammatically. It would have been a little weird, other than in the emerging monotheism at that time, to describe yourself as a Suchandsuch-ist; except if you need to describe yourself as a priest of Isis for example. And it ain't Hebrew, but in Latin there are religio and pietas. Temerarius (talk) 20:13, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

Judeans really primarily meant "people from the kingdom of Judah," first and foremost, which just happened to be a theocracy. Judaism really came about as meaning "the religion practiced by the Jewish people," which is why A) "Judean" predates "Judaism" and B) terms like "God-fearer" came to refer to gentiles who wanted to worship the Abrahamic Deity. Ian.thomson (talk) 22:22, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

Yes, you are both correct and not even wrong. Temerarius (talk) 07:28, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

Temerarius -- The Hebrew word "Yehudim" (יהודים) was highly equivocal, since it could mean "Members of the Israelite tribe of Judah by genealogical descent" or "Inhabitants of the kingdom or province of Judea" (whose lands had a large overlap with the traditional territory of the tribe of Judah) or "Followers of the religion whose leadership was originally based in Jerusalem" (which was the capital of Judea). Other theoretically-possible phrases which you mentioned do not occur in the text of the Hebrew Bible, as far as I know -- which also doesn't have words directly and unequivocally meaning "religion" or "Judaism"... AnonMoos (talk) 20:15, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

Let's get back to the original question. Nietzsche was probably factually incorrect to make such a sweeping statement about countless years of human history, but the comment does make a legitimate broader point. In prechristian times, you were usually either 1. from a particular area, and assumed to be a worshiper of that area's god, if monotheism is a thing there or 2. be a normal-ass polytheist who believes that the gods do stuff and you should do your duty of rituals, sacrifice, etc when you want something from them. I imagine that Nietzsche's point would have been either that A: religion has changed from focusing on ritual to focusing on belief, and/or B: the nature of religion has changed, since it's been divorced from political borders--and this change has caused some problems (eg wars.) His statement is framed as linguistic trivia, but it's about more. And to get back to the original-original question, if no one has come up with the origin of the quote yet, maybe it wasn't Nietzsche? Maybe another writer they were reading at the same time? Temerarius (talk) 00:37, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

Religious Traditions of the Aztecs

I am looking for a book which covers the religious practices, rituals and traditions of the old Aztecs. I am looking for a detailed book on the subject. I already checked the articles, but the subject was unfortunately not linked with many useful books. I am not looking for pop cultural books, more so for scientific literature on this very subject (historical sciences). I speak German, French, Italian, Spanish, some rather terrible English and a bit Russian, so literature in different languages would be good as well.--2A02:120B:C3E7:E650:B8B8:F986:1D7A:31C4 (talk) 16:15, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

Such a book would be fascinating to read but is unlikely to be found. The reason being is that the Spanish crushed all opposition to Catholicism and what is left of the Aztecs writing (stone carvings, pseudo-hieroglyphics, and knot-counting) has not been translated for the most part, again, because the Spanish tried to eliminate all native cultural practices, customs and religions. Good luck, and if you find such a book, please let us know. Thanks. Anton 81.131.40.58 (talk) 10:00, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

I typed "Religious Traditions of the Aztecs" into Google Books and found these results or with a slight adjustment, these too.

From that, The Mythology and Religion of the Aztec by Charles River Editors and Jesse Harasta seems to fit the bill and is available as an e-book or paperback, so won't break the bank.

Also Aztec Mythology and Religion by Hollis Reynosa.

For a more scholarly approach, The Oxford Handbook of the Aztecs has a section devoted to "ritual belief and religion" (pp. 571-642) with five essays written by specialists in the field.

Sorry, I didn't find anything helpful in German or French but that may be my lack of skill with Google in other languages; perhaps another editor might help.

Alansplodge (talk) 16:51, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

Taube, Karl (1994). Aztekische und Maya-Mythen. you can borrow from Archive.—eric 17:20, 27 December 2019 (UTC)