Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2019 October 4

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October 4

Craig Cailloc

Craig Cailloc. Where is it? I've found plenty of online references to it, but nothing to indicate where it is (or was).--Shantavira|^{feed me} 10:11, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

This suggests that such a place is in Perthshire.

This names such a place (a promentory) in "Glen Fishie" which might refer to the River Feshie, but the given translation ("Rock of the old woman") suggests a commonplace-ness such that it might not be unique.

As you'll have seen, virtually all of the textual references use the same or very similar wording, which probably stem from one of the clan history pages online.

We might query the article's initiator, @QuintusPetillius:, who seems to be currently active. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.121.161.82 (talk) 12:03, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

As for the battle itself (aside from the linked reference), I'm struggling to find anything that isn't a Wikipedia clone. Archive.org has nothing as far as I can see. I have consulted the scholars and gentlemen at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history to see if they can help. Alansplodge (talk) 12:29, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

Aha! Historical memoirs of the house and clan of Mackintosh and of the clan Chattan, Alexander Mackintosh, London 1880 (p. 145) says:

'...Clan Chattan began in 1441 to invade and harry the Cameron lands. In that year, a sanguinary conflict took place at Craig Cailloch between the two clans, in which Mackintosh's second son, Lachlan "Badenoch", was wounded and Gillichallum his brother killed'.

The variant spelling had spoiled my initial searches. Alansplodge (talk) 15:16, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

Also: Dunachton, past and present: episodes in the history of the Mackintoshes, Charles Fraser MACKINTOSH, Inverness 1866 (p. 4): 'The-above Lachlan Mackintosh's name first appears in the year 1441 as having fought with the Camerons at Craig-Cailloch, when his brother Gilliecallum and his cousin Angus were slain, and he himself lost several fingers'. Alansplodge (talk) 15:21, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

Curiously a different place name is given in an earlier account, for what must be the same engagement.

Memoirs of Sir Ewen Cameron of Locheill, Chief of the Clan Cameron : with an introductory account of the history and antiquities of that family and of the neighbouring clans, Edinburgh, 1737 (p. 21) has next to a margin note the date "1441": "He [Donald McEwan] was succeeded by his son Ewan, who was in no way inferior to his father in military conduct; he had frequent skirmishes with the Macintoshes [sic], and defeated them in a considerable action at a place called Craigiarlich in the Brea of Badenoch, where Lachlan, one of the laird's brothers, was mortally wounded, and Malcolm, another of them, and Angus, their near relation, were killed, besides many others".

Alansplodge (talk) 17:03, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

First things first I don't believe that I have ever edited under IP address 87.81.230.195, so I don't know where that came from. As for the location of the battle, I have just repeated the name found in the sources that are being quoted. I should mention that Craig Cailloch and Craigiarlich will almost certainly be the same place. Being familiar with the type of publications mentioned above, it is clear that they often used different spelling variations for the same geographic locations, even when publishing in the 19th and 20th centuries.QuintusPetillius (talk) 17:12, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for replying User:QuintusPetillius, the editor who pinged you likes to call himself "The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195" instead of opening an account.

I have moved the article to Battle of Craig Cailloch as I couldn't find another source that omits the final "h" and it was causing confusion (to me at least). I have also expanded the text using the sources which we have found. Feel free to edit it if I've done anything wrong. Best regards, Alansplodge (talk) 20:36, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

Yes, sorry for the unintended confusion, QuintusPetillius. I do indeed sign myself thus, and remain accountless, for quixotic personal reasons. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.121.161.82 (talk) 03:45, 5 October 2019 (UTC)

Many thanks for all the work you've all put into this. (Of course I'm also looking for "Auldgown, upon the borders of Caithness" but I'm not optimistic.)--Shantavira|^{feed me} 06:18, 5 October 2019 (UTC)

Oh, right I had not seen that method of formatting the previous IP user address before. Thanks for expanding the article with some decent references as well.QuintusPetillius (talk) 09:41, 5 October 2019 (UTC)

It's probably unique to me, and was inspired by the musician Prince. The IP in question was for some years my static home IP, until my ISP was taken over by another that instead issues dynamic IPs. (The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.121.161.82 (talk) 07:42, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

I used Bing Maps which has an Ordnance Survey map view to follow the course of the River Feshie from Kincraig. About 15 km south of Feshiebridge in the middle of nowhere is Creag na Caillich, a wooded outcrop on the west bank of the Feshie. OS Map Ref 853 903. However, there is also another Creag na Caillich, [1] a spur of Meall Garbh (Lawers Group), a mountain north of the town of Killin in Stirlingshire, which is probably not in Cameron country. Alansplodge (talk) 11:15, 5 October 2019 (UTC)

The coordinates for the Glen Feshie location are 56.988414°N 3.884446°W / 56.988414; -3.884446 (click on the link, select "Bing Maps" and then click on the "Road" icon at the top right of the map and select "Ordnance Survey"). Alansplodge (talk) 13:53, 5 October 2019 (UTC)

Question about US state legislatures and the 1787 Constitutional Convention

Did US state legislatures ever hold a vote as to whether or not they should send delegates to the 1787 Constitutional Convention? Futurist110 (talk) 23:36, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

Britannica says they were all chosen by the state legislatures.[2] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:33, 5 October 2019 (UTC)

Did US state legislatures also call for and create this constitutional convention in the first place? Futurist110 (talk) 07:10, 5 October 2019 (UTC)

There was no U.S. at that time. See though Continental Congress. 173.228.123.207 (talk) 07:20, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

Yes there was. Since 1781, when the Articles of Confederation declared that: The stile of this confederacy shall be "The United States of America." And Congress of the Confederation was the body that came after the Continental Congress. Rmhermen (talk) 22:47, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

No. The idea for the 1787 convention was contained in the report from the Annapolis Convention (1786), signed by delegates of the five states that attended (four other states voted to send delegates who failed to arrive, and four did nothing). Congress later endorsed the idea for the new convention. Someguy1221 (talk) 22:55, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

Yes somewhat. Virginia issued the call for the Annapolis Convention which proposed, to Congress and to the states, the Philadelphia Convention. Several states chose delegates for Annapolis and all but one state chose delegates to send to Philadelphia. No one really gave them authority to write a new constitution though. The Congress did try to amend the Articles themselves between the two conventions but failed to get the unanimous consent required. Rmhermen (talk) 23:30, 6 October 2019 (UTC)