Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2020 August 13

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August 13

Friendly fire between Americans or Hessians during the American Revolution

Are there any recorded instances of American to American or Hessian to Hessian friendly fire during the American Revolution due to the fact that they both wore blue? Their uniforms weren't identical, but in the heat of battle, at a distance, shrouded in smoke from black powder muskets, I can see this happening relatively often. I'm not sure, however, because the American blue uniform was far from standardized, and if I understand correctly, was only worn by officers, for the most part. --Puzzledvegetable^{Is it teatime already?} 01:27, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

User:Puzzledvegetable, I assume you mean friendly fire between the British and the Hessians? The Germans were fighting against the Americans. Rojomoke (talk) 04:35, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

I actually assumed he meant of Americans shooting at Americans thinking they were shooting at Hessians, and Hessians shooting at Hessians thinking they were shooting at Americans. 199.66.69.67 (talk) 05:10, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

List of friendly fire incidents#American Revolutionary War has two events for that conflict. At the Battle of Germantown, two Continental brigades opened fire on each other, the main problem seems to have been fog and the confused nature of the battle rather than poor uniform recognition; although there were Hessians present, I can't find anything to suggest that it was the cause of the mistake. At the Battle of Guilford Court House, British artillery fired into a melee which was obscured by black powder smoke, hitting some of their own troops as well as the enemy.

Note that uniform colour was not an invariable guide in early modern warfare, the Gardes Suisses of the French Royal Army wore red coats in the Seven Years' War against the British, and in the Napoleonic Wars, both the French and Prussians wore blue; although admittedly this did cause Napoleon to briefly believe that the Prussians arriving on the field of Waterloo were his expected French reinforcements. Alansplodge (talk) 13:10, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

By the way, in that conflict there were plenty of Americans who were fighting Americans on purpose. Who was the more patriotic is still a matter of viewpoint. Alansplodge (talk) 13:16, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

Unsourced anecdote: a soldier was presented to the Habsburg Emperor as "a great patriot"; "But is he a patriot for me?" —Tamfang (talk) 00:16, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

​Is that list intended to be a comprehensive list of all friendly fire incidents in the American Revolution, or were there more? I find it hard to believe that it only happened twice, but maybe I'm stuck with a 21st century notion of how wars are fought. I guess when you're fighting in lines position is more an identifier than uniform color. --Puzzledvegetable^{Is it teatime already?} 14:06, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

Good point. A quick Google suggested that these were the best known, but a bit more digging has found that James Abercrombie (British Army officer, born 1732) was probably shot by friendly fire at the Battle of Bunker Hill, shot from behind at close range, although Americans tend to believe he was picked off by one Salem Poor. The British light company involved had already been stopped from firing on their own grenadiers. [1]. This article mentions British on British friendly fire at the Battle of Stony Point which was fought at night.

This article records a "friendly fire incident involving two American scouting parties. A detachment of scouts from Lt. Col. Daniel Brodhead’s Pennsylvania rifle battalions which returned to White Plains early this morning reported capturing thirty-four Loyalists and one regular soldier and killing fourteen of the enemy near the British lines. Unfortunately, the riflemen also mistook some of “the Delaware Blues for the enemy,” and six riflemen and nine of Col. John Haslet’s Delaware “Blues” were killed in the ensuing firefight between the two friendly parties". This was also in the dark, so I doubt that uniform colour would be discernable. Alansplodge (talk) 14:37, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

That's all I could find. Alansplodge (talk) 14:37, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

Fun fact: White Plains is now the capital of the county immediately north of New York City but the farms started many times closer in then. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 17:06, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

Quote source

I'm looking for both the full version, and source, of the following quote-snippet:

• "space ... the silent and implacable co-editor".

I read it in a 1997 newspaper review of The Oxford Book of New Zealand Short Stories, edited by Vincent O'Sullivan.

The reviewer may have been quoting the editor's own words from a preface or introduction. I say this because the reviewer writes: "The editor ... has hundreds of writers and thousands of stories to choose from, with only "space .... co-editor" as his enemy."

Or it may have come from an unrelated source. My searches have produced no results. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 03:04, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

Google kindly revealed a snippet view of the The Oxford Book of New Zealand Short Stories, from which I was able wring-out the following:

"And what of New Zealand short fiction among younger writers? Take four of the last names in this collection and you are directed to as many variations on what a story does, or how it can be told. Antony McCarten's fling with gothic innocence, Vivienne Plumb on the Asian already residing in our subconscious, Fiona Farrell's surreal and domesticated Jesus, and John Cranna's constructing a future that won't be there with the bones of an earlier extinction, all present what a New Zealand reader would recognize and accept as local density. But would one bother to argue, or think it important to argue, that any single one of them, as a narrative method, was necessarily to be opted for? Or better suited to who and where we are? If there has been a shaking down of what once seemed such 'essential concerns', the gains in diversity and fictional freedom have been immense. In ten years' time, of course, one may well have to say something very different. But for the moment, vigorous uncertainty is not a bad condition for a writer to contend with.

A final, if fairly obvious, word. In reading for this anthology, and in putting it together, I have defined a New Zealand story, broadly and, I think, cogently as one by a born New Zealander, by some one who has chosen to live here, or by a writer who has written specifically from or on New Zealand experience. Kipling or Texidor quite as compellingly meet that definition as do, say, Finlayson or Wells. And I accept what any anthologist accepts as the constriction of his or her brief: because choices have to be made, one's own preferences certainly aren't going to match up with everyone else's. Space is always the silent and implacable co-editor of any collection. I regret having to leave out many stories I admire and like. Those I have included make their own case.

Vincent O'Sullivan August, 1992".

The trick is to repeatedly paste the last part of the search result back into the search bar (in quote marks), hopefully revealing a bit more of the text each time. Alansplodge (talk) 13:54, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

I learn something new every day. I'm indebted to you, Alansplodge. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 19:21, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

Resolved

Vice President of Kamala Harris

Hi,

Who will be the vice president if Biden is elected and resigns? 2001:EE0:4161:9A7:7DA6:9F8A:93B3:1E2F (talk) 03:37, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

Not known. Harris would have to nominate someone. See Twenty-fifth Amendment to the United States Constitution#Section 2: Vice presidential vacancy. 199.66.69.67 (talk) 03:56, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

The nominee would have to be approved by a majority vote of both houses of Congress. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 04:12, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

A relatively recent example is the nomination and subsequent approval by Congress of Nelson Rockefeller, when Gerald Ford's accession to the presidency upon Nixon's resignation in 1974 had left the office of vice president vacant; see Presidency of Gerald Ford#Vice presidency.  --Lambiam 08:05, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

He's one of only two examples because the Twenty-fifth Amendment to the United States Constitution was passed only a few years before it needed to be invoked. Before 1967, if there was a vacancy in the VP position, it just stayed open until the next election. I cover this above section titled "USA: President versus Acting president", where I explain that the VP was usually (and still basically is) a job without a meaningful roles, so it was not usually seen as terribly vital to fill it. At one point in history, almost half of all Presidents had served significant time without a VP. Since 1967, there's a procedure to fill the job. --Jayron32 12:25, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

Ford is unique in US history... he was the only President who achieved the position purely by appointment instead of election. Blueboar (talk) 12:38, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

Indeed, he got appointed VP because of the resignation of Nixon's first VP, Spiro Agnew, over a corruption scandal. Thus the clause in the 25th amendment was invoked twice in less than a year. --Jayron32 12:51, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

Just to reinforce the point that there does not need to be a VP: LBJ had no VP until January 1965, a period of 14 months. DOR (HK) (talk) 19:26, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

And hardly the first time. It happened 18 times. James Madison did it twice; both of his VPs died in office. The longest was John Tyler, whose boss died a month after he was inaugurated. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆 𝄐𝄇} 20:54, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

(satire) She is working on it.[2] 2602:24A:DE47:BB20:50DE:F402:42A6:A17D (talk) 08:27, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

Is Boris putting children at risk?

(Re-posting by banned user removed. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:45, 13 August 2020 (UTC))

Some references for you:

• "Investigations of cases identified in school settings suggest that child to child transmission in schools is uncommon and not the primary cause of SARS-CoV-2 infection in children whose onset of infection coincides with the period during which they are attending school, particularly in preschools and primary schools" European Centre for Disease Prevention and Control - COVID-19 in children and the role of school settings in COVID-19 transmission.
• British Medical Journal - Viewpoint - Children are not COVID-19 super spreaders: time to go back to school
• "School closures - even when temporary - carry high social and economic costs" UNESCO - Adverse consequences of school closures

Alansplodge (talk) 19:24, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

Short answer: No)))))). Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 08:15, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

Wot?????? Are you telling us that Fangs Anal Satan is not a hub in the child sex ring run by Hillary Clinton, Tom Hanks and George Soros? The Thing Which Solomon Overlooked obviously refers to the wasteful spilling of rejuvenating blood that would have resulted from the proposed infantile partitioning.  --Lambiam 11:57, 14 August 2020 (UTC)