Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2020 May 3

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May 3

Question regarding D. H. Lawrence's Apocalypse

D. H. Lawrence's work Apocalypse contains an introduction to the book The Dragon of the Apocalypse, by Frederick Carter. I have been looking up copies of Carter's work online, but have only found a book called The Dragon of the Alchemists. Is The Dragon of the Alchemists the same work as The Dragon of the Apocalypse under a different title? Freeknowledgecreator (talk) 03:32, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

According to this, "Carter published Dragon of the Alchemists in 1926 [...] and then published it with some differences in 1932 as Dragon of Revelation [...]". 2606:A000:1126:28D:9912:5769:26BF:1ED4 (talk) 04:19, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

Apocalypse, Revelation, whatever. I'm reminded of the occasion on which Gene Wolfe told a columnist for Locus, a publishing magazine, that a forthcoming book of his, fourth in a series, would be titled The Citadel of the Autarch, only to find it listed as "The Castle of the Otter." Wolfe subsequently used this misheard title for a volume of essays about the writing of the series. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.219.81.243 (talk) 18:55, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

Sieges ended by climbing a garderobe

I'm aware of Siege of Château Gaillard. Can anyone name any others? Particularly interested in any involving Crusaders, especially as attackers. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 10:07, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

A fairly thorough Google search suggests that Galliard might be unique, as countermeasures were generally incorporated in the design:

"...it is interesting to speculate whether or not this event led directly to the introduction of metal grills being installed into garderobe chutes, or whether they had already been a common feature in a castle's defences, but the builders at Château Gaillard had simply forgotten to include them". In Search of Chester's Medieval Castle (p. 18) by Phillip E. Jones.

"With defence being the primary concern, the garderobe chutes were often covered right down to ground level with access barred by a metal grid. This was designed to stop an attacker climbing up the garderobe chute. However some simply dumped their contents high on the castle wall. This was the system employed at Liscarroll Castle Co. Cork. The platform to sit on was supported by a stone frame... There was no chute instead the waste was dumped directly onto the castle wall through the slit in the bottom right. Aside from displaying faeces right beside the entrance to the castle, this toilet must have been freezing in winter. Situated at least 10 metres above ground level wind still gusts through the slit". On the throne; a look at the medieval toilet by Stephen Cronin.

Alansplodge (talk) 10:53, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

Terrific research, Alansplodge, thanks. Yes, I've seen garderobes in some British castles that have little to no chute and must have created rather unpleasantly streaked walls. Possibly an additional biological defence for that little section of wall! Anyway, I thought I'd read something in a Crusader history about an assault via garderobe - that either referenced Chateau Gaillard as a possible inspiration or my brain did that for me - but I may have dreamed the whole thing. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 08:26, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

I found a few mentions in historical novels like this one, but nothing else. Alansplodge (talk) 11:10, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

Baku coordinates

I've noticed that the coordinates of Baku somewhat vary by source. The article currently gives 40°23'43"N 49°52'56"E, the Russian wikiarticle gives 40°21'59"N 49°50'06"E. DMS values in Geodatos and in LatLong, for example, also have discrepancies in whole minutes, let alone seconds. Should we correct something? Thanks. 212.180.235.46 (talk) 15:31, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

All of those seem to fall within the city, so I'm not sure what the problem is. --Khajidha (talk) 16:19, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

I wonder if there's a point regarded as the centre of Baku? (for London, it's the Equestrian statue of Charles I, Charing Cross, or more precisely, a little plaque just behind it). Alansplodge (talk) 17:07, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

While it varies a bit, a decent rule of thumb is that 1 minute=1 mile (1.6 km) so the area defined by the differences noted by the OP is an area of about 4-5 square miles (12-13 sq km). The area of Baku is like 200 times that. I don't think it's worth worrying about. I mean, sure, if you're trying to identify a single building inside the city, you're not going to do it. But in terms of being actually in the city, either measurement does fine. It's really a tiny bit of uncertainty. --Jayron32 21:25, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

• Harrumph. 1 mile is about, or 1 nautical mile is almost exactly, 1 minute of latitude. The length of a minute of longitude varies according to the cosine of the latitude. At Baku it's nearer 3/4 mile. --76.71.5.208 (talk) 18:05, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

This looks like a case of WP:Overprecision.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 05:38, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

Note that the first linked position isn't for Baku, its for a specific TV tower in Baku. The position from the second link seems to be completely arbitrary - a random point next to a road next to a building site. The position from the article seems to be either a random tea room, and/or a Google Maps photo from inside a hotel room or something. The Russian position seems to be for the Old City (and more specifically, it appears to be the Google Maps position for a photograph taken inside a museum). Iapetus (talk) 08:51, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

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Old City with Beyler Mosque marked.

Bakuvians think of the Old City (İçəri Şəhər, literally "Inner City") as being the city centre around which the current town grew in all directions not barred by the Caspian Sea. A likely candidate for being assigned the role of centre of the Old City is the location of the Beyler Mosque (Bəylər məscidi) – although not old, built on the site of an ancient mosque. The Azeri Wikipedia gives its coordinates as 40°21'58"N 49°50'04"E, almost the same as reported for Baku by the Russian Wikipedia.  --Lambiam 10:19, 5 May 2020 (UTC)