Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2020 May 6

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May 6

FDR's speech

FDR's famous Pearl Harbor speech includes "In addition American ships have been reported torpedoed on the high seas between San Francisco and Honolulu." Was this true? (Not that it was reported, but that it happened). 107.15.157.44 (talk) 04:48, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

I don't know, but I was interested to see that "reported" was a late addition to that sentence after the speech was drafted. Presuambly Roosevelt himself wasn't sure of the facts there. --76.71.5.208 (talk) 08:21, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

SS Cynthia Olson "On the 7th December 1941 when on route from Tacoma to Honolulu with a cargo of lumber she was sunk by gunfire and torpedo from the Japanese submarine I-26 when about 1,200 miles West of Seattle". This page says she had been "Chartered by US Army Transportation Corps in August 1941". Alansplodge (talk) 11:16, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

I have just found List of shipwrecks in December 1941#7 December which shows (as far as Wikipedia knows) that Cynthia Olson was the only loss in that sea area on December 7 or 8, 1941. Other ships may have been damaged but not sunk but if so, I haven't found them. Alansplodge (talk) 11:26, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

BTW, our Japanese submarine I-26 article says that she was sunk by gunfire and not torpedo. However, all the crew subsequently died before they could be rescued and the US authorities only knew that the ship had been attacked by a submarine, so it was not unreasonable that they assumed that torpedoes were involved. Alansplodge (talk) 11:37, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

According to December 7, 1941: The Day the Japanese Attacked Pearl Harbor (p. 89), two torpedoes were launched at Cynthia Olson but missed. Alansplodge (talk) 11:47, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

Harding, S. (2016). Dawn of infamy: A sunken ship, a vanished crew, and the final mystery of Pearl Harbor. OCLC 953175950.. fiveby(zero) 15:57, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

Thanks, all -- interesting stuff. —107.15.157.44 (talk) 16:47, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

Thanks to lockdown and having nothing better to do, we now have an article called SS Cynthia Olson. Alansplodge (talk) 17:00, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

Would it be WP:OR to mention in the article that this event was "alluded to" in FDR's speech? 2606:A000:1126:28D:CD3D:D2B2:F9A0:8975 (talk) 17:48, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

Do you have a source that makes that connection for you? --Jayron32 17:51, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

Nope, just some excellent OR by Alansplodge, et al. 2606:A000:1126:28D:CD3D:D2B2:F9A0:8975 (talk) 17:56, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

Ref found and a brief note added at the end, I thought it wise not to go beyond "alluded to". Alansplodge (talk) 18:16, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

Related

FDR asked Congress to declare that "...a state of war has existed...". That sounds like a retroactive declaration. I bring this up because the SS Cynthia Olson article includes "Cynthia Olson was the first United States Merchant Marine vessel to be sunk after the entry of the United States into World War II." -- Technically, this would not be true if war actually began with the signing on the 8th, unless there was some sort of retroactive designation. Comments? 2606:A000:1126:28D:CD3D:D2B2:F9A0:8975 (talk) 21:01, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

Well, Roosevelt asked for a declaration that a state of war "has existed since the unprovoked and dastardly attack", and if Wikipedia is correct, Pearl Harbor was attacked 12 minutes before the ship was. So I don't see an error there. The actual resolution by Congress was that "the state of war between the United States and the Government of Germany which has thus been thrust upon the United States is hereby formally declared", but the key word is "formally". --76.71.5.208 (talk) 21:15, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

I suppose some degree of ambiguity was intentional. It would only matter in a legal sense. 2606:A000:1126:28D:CD3D:D2B2:F9A0:8975 (talk) 22:16, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

I thought this might be a bit problematic when I wrote it, so carefully avoided any mention of a declaration. If anyone can think of a better form of words, I'll be happy to put them in or you can do it yourself. Note that the Germans had sunk several US ships while the US was still neutral (but pushing the bounds of the term somewhat), see USS Greer (DD-145) for example. Alansplodge (talk) 11:46, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

Ulysses and Bobrikov

James Joyce's famous novel Ulysses happens on the exact same day as Eugen Schauman assassinated Nikolay Bobrikov in real life. Was this a coincidence or is there some kind of relation between these? JIP | Talk 11:43, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

Our article Bloomsday explains that the date had personal significance for Joyce and his wife, so the coincidence is apparently meaningless. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.219.81.243 (talk) 13:34, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

C. S. Lewis and Aldous Huxley died on the same day as J. F. Kennedy and J. D. Tippit. (A bad day for people known by their initials.) The last two were related, the first two were not. The world can cope with many things happening at the same time. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 23:04, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

Unless there are only at most 365-366 significant events in a year, there are going to be coincidences. Clarityfiend (talk) 23:42, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

Well, sure, but Ulysses is a work of fiction, meaning that the author chose the date. Since it could have been any date, it's not unreasonable to question whether it was picked for a particular reason tied to real life, such as to provoke comparisons or commentary. Matt Deres (talk) 02:18, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

User:Clarityfiend, it's not just the same date of the year. It's the exact same day. Same date, same year. The exact same day in all of history. JIP | Talk 10:20, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

That's why I specified "in a year", i.e. "in the same year". Clarityfiend (talk) 22:02, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

Yes, but Joyce chose it because it was the day of his first date with his future wife. It is a day which is highly significant to Joyce. There are likely many more newsworthy events that happened on that day. Indeed, many more newsworthy events likely happened than some random Irish guy getting a handjob. Yet, that is the date Joyce chose for that exact reason and not for anything else which may have been in the paper that day. The reason for his choice is well documented, and he's never been concerned with Finnish nationalism. --Jayron32 12:47, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

We have Category:Novels set in one day. I wonder if any of the others explicitly name the date, as Ulysses did. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 19:28, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

A quick peek tells me that Night Boat to Tangier is set on 23 October 2018, while Tomorrow is set on 16 June 1995, curiously the same date as Ulysses. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 19:58, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

List of media set within one day is more broad, and has many more works (more novels too!) than that category. --Jayron32 20:08, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

April Morning takes place over less than 24 hours, April 18-19 1775. But that one is easy to nail down, as it is centered on a real historical event. --Jayron32 20:11, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

So the answer is that the events are not related. James Joyce just happened to have his first date with his wife on the exact same day in history as Eugen Schauman assassinated Nikolay Bobrikov. JIP | Talk 22:12, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

I doubt that they coordinated the date with the assassination, but that's something future historians could research. 2601:648:8202:96B0:3567:50D5:8BFF:4588 (talk) 04:37, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

20th century

Are there any conditions for how in culture and entertainment certain film stars/ filmmakers and music artists are applied? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:8003:744a:e600:680a:9044:7ae5:2d00 (talk • contribs) 2020-05-06T12:50:51 (UTC)

I'm guessing that this question must be about the criteria for inclusion in 20th century#Culture and entertainment. The place to ask is at Talk:20th century. --ColinFine (talk) 12:57, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

I asked the question there.

Jacky Gordon and her brother

'Jacky Gordon and her brother' (1806) by John Thomas Serres

The drawing, above, by John Thomas Serres is inscribed "Jacky Gordon and her brother / as seen at the Assembly in Edinb. 1806". Who were they? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 14:47, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

Maybe Johanna Gordon, Countess of Stair, see: John Dalrymple, 7th Earl of Stair, [1]. fiveby(zero) 15:14, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

Brother could be John Gordon (soldier) (yup [2]. fiveby(zero) 15:31, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

Their father being "Charles Gordon of Clunie, who built the mansion of Braid House about 1785" [3] Alansplodge (talk) 16:53, 6 May 2020 (UTC)