Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2020 October 15

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October 15

Francis, Duke of Châtellerault's coat of arms

Does anyone here know if Francis, Duke of Châtellerault had any coat of arms of his own and, if so, where exactly I can discover an image of them? I can't seem to find any portraits of him and also any images of coats of arms for him, which is really sad. Futurist110 (talk) 01:54, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

Presumably a cadet version of the arms of Bourbon-Montpensier, France modern, a bend engrailed gules. I'll see if I can dig out Ottfried Neubecker's Heraldry: Sources, Symbols and Meaning which has a tree of Capetian cadet arms. I expect to find (if anything) that he charged the bend with something argent, like a number of other Bourbon cadets. —Tamfang (talk) 05:29, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

Edited to add the subtitle. —Tamfang (talk) 08:53, 25 October 2020 (UTC)

François de Bourbon, duc de Châtellerault (in French) is burried in Souvigny (Alliers), more precisely in the "chapelle vieille" of the "Prieurale Saint-Pierre et Saint-Paul" [1]. Unfortunatly, I cannot find a picture of his grave, where the coats of arms are usually engraved. May be his grave was destroyed during the French Revolution. - AldoSyrt (talk) 07:35, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

Per Tamfang's suggestion, it is indeed in Neubecker (on page 101, halfway along on the extreme right of the 6-page fold-out chart comprising pp 98–103): for some reason, the name is there spelled "Chatelberault". It's shown in black and white, but extrapolating from other linked arms shown in colour, it appears to be:

Quarterly, 1st and 4th France Ancient Modern, a bend Gules (as in the arms of his father here);

2nd and 3rd [field Argent or Or], a cross formée [colour unknown] between four eagles displayed Sable(?), and at the fesse point an ecutcheon bearing the arms Quarterly, 1st and 4th [metal] a lion rampant [colour], 2nd and third barry of eight [metal] and [colour]. (The escutcheon is so small that details such as field pattern may be omitted.)

Hopefully others can follow up other references and fill in the missing details. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.122.178.0 (talk) 13:00, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

Would it be asking too much for you to upload an image of this coat of arms onto Wikipedia--even if it is in black-and-white? Futurist110 (talk) 00:30, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

I've managed to make a 600dpi scan of the relevant part of the page, saved as a jpeg (I think – this is not my area of expertise). I've never uploaded any picture or other document to Wikipedia before, so I'll have to research this and get back to you later it'll take some hours because of Real Life :-). {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.122.178.0 (talk) 11:43, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

Here's how you upload files--including images--onto Wikimedia Commons: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:UploadWizard Once you'll get the relevant file onto Wikimedia Commons, I myself can personally put this file on Wikipedia in the relevant article. :) Futurist110 (talk) 15:53, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

Unfortunately that procedure requires a login, and for reasons of personal philosophy I do not have, nor want to have at this time, a Wikipedia (or related) account. In fact, I studiously avoid having any internet accounts that I can possibly avoid.

Subsequent to my previous post, I've created a magnified, cropped and filtered version of the original partial page scan showing only the relevant arms and caption (for identification purposes), with background colours and chart line removed. If this does not obviate any copyright problems, any competent artist could re-draw the arms without affecting the validity of the resultant image (since, as you probably know, heraldry is not specific about details of style or exact hues of tinctures, the written blazon in a Grant of Arms is the definitive version of them.)

Incidentally, in the process of the above, I've noticed a further detail I previously omitted: the bends in the 1st and 4th quarters of the overall arms are charged with a dauphin label at their upper ends, aligned with their slant, much as Tamfang predicted above.

I'm open to suggestions of how to convey the image to you, given the circumstances. Alternatively, Tamfang will surely be able do so as well or better than I when he has time to consult his copy of the book. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.122.178.0 (talk) 21:40, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for your help! Anyway, I wonder if it would be most prudent for me to ask @Tamfang: if he could upload the relevant image onto Wikipedia once he will find his copy of this book. Futurist110 (talk) 00:31, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

(How many heraldry nerds frequent the RD?) Your confidence is touching! but may be more justified if you nudge me in a week. (I'm in the middle of moving across town.) —Tamfang (talk) 01:49, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

Well, I wouldn't necessarily view myself as a heraldry nerd. ;) I just couldn't really find a better image for his Wikipedia article. (I used a picture of Francis I of France for the time being and explained why, but I think that the coat of arms would be better.) Anyway, I'll ping you in one week--if I won't forget about this by then! :) Thank you very much for your help and good luck on your move! Futurist110 (talk) 02:42, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

I found my Neubecker. Quarters 2&3 have House of Gonzaga; his mother was Clara Gonzaga. — His father Gilbert, Count of Montpensier (arms shown in his article) quartered Bourbon with Or a dolphin azure, as dauphin of Auvergne. François, like his elder brothers, moved the dolphin onto the upper segment of the Bourbon bend; I don't know how to blazon that! — I said above that Montpensier engrailed the bend, but Neubecker shows only one man with engrailing (Gilbert's father). —Tamfang (talk) 08:41, 25 October 2020 (UTC)

@Tamfang: Thank you! Anyway, though, a scan might still be nice for clarity--assuming that it's not too much of a burden for you and that there are no copyright issues with doing this. I don't want you to recreate this image; I just want you to scan it if at all possible. It should only take several minutes, right? Futurist110 (talk) 19:25, 25 October 2020 (UTC)

A man with many wives

Besides Henry VIII (who has had six wives), are there other famous men who have had many wives? 86.128.175.75 (talk) 20:59, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

Tommy Manville had 13 marriages to 11 women. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:38, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

But Glynn "Scotty" Wolfe had 29 marriages.

I'm somewhat stunned that we don't seem to have any sort of list or category for multiply-married people. I created List of people who remarried the same spouse, but you only need to have been married twice to make that list. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:43, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

What about people who remarried a different spouse?  --Lambiam 23:20, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

I wonder how many second weddings have the same officiant as the first. —Tamfang (talk) 01:51, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

They would belong to the general list, were there one, of people who had multiple marriages. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 01:22, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

Using 2017 data downloaded from the IMDB, I found just one person with 10 or more marriages listed: Bonnie Lee Bakley with 10. There were 5 people each with 9 marriages listed: Vinicius de Moraes, Zsa Zsa Gabor, Kenneth Harlan, Jennifer O'Neill, and Norman Selby. Selby married the same woman twice according to the IMDB (three times according to Wikipedia), so he only had 8 different wives. But de Moraes and Harlan do each seem to have had 9 differen wives, so now you only have to decide if they are famous enough.

The same source lists 14 people each with 8 marriages, of which Alan Jay Lerner, Mickey Rooney, and Artie Shaw were married to women and each certainly qualify as famous to my mind. The others are: Eddie Barclay (Wikipedia lists 9 wives for him), Lina Basquette, Nick Bollettieri (Wikipedia only knows about his most recent wife), Mary Fahrney (1910–74, unknown to Wikipedia, IMDB only has one acting credit), Douglas Fowley (Wikipedia only knows about 7 marriages), Ty Hardin (Wikipedia does not list all his marriages), Sabah (singer), Espartaco Santoni (1932–98, unknown to Wikipedia), Elizabeth Taylor (who of course married the same person twice), and Lana Turner. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.89.48.182 (talk) 22:30, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

Solomon. --Amble (talk) 23:44, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

I'm surprised no-one mentioned Muslim kings. Omidinist (talk) 02:28, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

I assume that the OP is interested in serial rather than polygamous marriages. I could be wrong. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 02:55, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

Likely, but still: Joseph Smith, Brigham Young and their ilk. Clarityfiend (talk) 07:04, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

The Manville situation led to one of the best lines from the Guinness Book of World Records. The writers opined that, "Manville made his fortune in asbestos, which he unfortunately could not take with him." ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:51, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

Trump must be fairly high compared to other US presidents. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:21, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

Reagan was married twice. He may have been the first divorcee elected president. (Maybe one or two of them had second marriages after their first wife had died.) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:19, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

Data assembled here: Reagan and Trump are the only divorced people to become president. Five presidents were widowed and remarried. Theodore Roosevelt is the only one to remarry before he became president; Tyler, and Wilson did it while they were president; and Fillmore and Benjamin Harrison did it afterwards. --174.89.48.182 (talk) 21:24, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

Shahryār. 2601:5C6:8081:35C0:741D:9D39:EF51:1FDC (talk) 11:58, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

Constitutions that prohibit amendments

Are there constitutions that prohibit any amendment, i.e. set in stone? In Constitutional amendment my reading of "Most constitutions require that amendments cannot be enacted unless they have passed a special procedure" is that most constitutions allow some amendments anyway. So non-amendable constitutions may be in minority. 212.180.235.46 (talk) 23:00, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

Theoretically speaking, a constitution can refuse to have any amendment procedure at all, if that's what you're asking. If so, changing any part of it would require the adoption of a new constitution. Alternatively, a constitution can make only parts of it unamendable--though even so, the judiciary can subsequently "discover" additional implicit limits on the amendment power later on. Our Unconstitutional constitutional amendment article, created and largely written by myself, discusses this trend among some national judiciaries in pretty extensive detail as well as the reasoning and rationales that are being used to justify this trend. Futurist110 (talk) 00:33, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

See also entrenched clause. 2602:24A:DE47:BB20:50DE:F402:42A6:A17D (talk) 01:16, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

Perhaps "the law of the Medes and Persians, which altereth not" [2] Alansplodge (talk) 07:51, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

In traditional Islamic societies, only unchanging divine law (shari`a) was supposed to exist, but various interpretations and parallel systems crept in over the centuries, so things were not as unchanging in practice as they were in theory (see 'Urf etc). But some Muslim visitors to Europe in the 18th and 19th centuries were a little shocked by the concept of legislatures -- freely and publicly admitting to enacting human-written laws (often without reference to religion) seemed kind of brazenly shameless to them... AnonMoos (talk) 12:35, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

It should be noted that none of these legal systems based on tradition or religious doctrine are constitutional systems. Constitutionalism is supposed to trace back to the Magna Carta in some sense, though the modern concept of a constitution is not very old. 199.66.69.32 (talk) 01:50, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

Not all constitutions descend from the Magna Carta. The Constitution of San Marino, for example, has no known connection to it. The Iroquois Great Law of Peace also has no connection to it. --Jayron32 12:57, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

I am aware of no constitutions that expressly prohibit any amendment. There are surely some that do not provide an amendment process, though I suspect those may have been early in the history of constitutionalism. As Futurist110 notes, a non-amendable constitution may still be replaced by a new constitution, though strictly speaking the process would be unlawful and, at least in legal terms, be tantamount to the secession of all the former government’s territory to a new government created by the new constitution. Indeed, the amendment process for the Articles of Confederation was not strictly followed when the United States Constitution was adopted, and so in theory some continental congress could come into existence. But at some level this becomes little different than monarchical succession disputes and similar problems. And as has been argued, there are arguments that even the supposedly entrenched clauses of the United States Constitution were amendable when they were in force. 199.66.69.32 (talk) 19:16, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

In Britain, which has an unwritten constitution, one provision is that "no parliament can bind its successor". Is it the same in the U S? If it is, Congress can do whatever it wants. 2A00:23C6:2403:E900:6CEF:8139:AE0C:E0A (talk) 12:58, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

The powers of the US Congress is limited by the Constitution, so it can not do “whatever it wants”. Blueboar (talk) 13:24, 19 October 2020 (UTC)