Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2021 April 25

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April 25

Do most Greek Cypriots and most Turkish Cypriots currently support the reunification of Cyprus?

Are majority of people living on Cyprus in favor of reunifying the island? Have Greek Cypriots abandoned all hope of annexing the island to Greece? And vice versa for Turkish Cypriots and annexing Cyprus to Turkey? StellarHalo (talk) 06:06, 25 April 2021 (UTC)

Turkish Cypriots say no to Cyprus reunification (March 2021). Alansplodge (talk) 12:06, 25 April 2021 (UTC)

It was the Greek Cypriots who rejected the 2004 Cypriot Annan Plan referendums. Of course, many on the Greek side don't consider those who immigrated to northern Cyprus since 1974 to be Cypriots at all. In a way, both sides are kind of "status quo" at the moment -- Turkey controls a larger percentage of the land of Cyprus than the percentage of the island's population who are Turks, and is not eager to stir up international antagonism for a dubious benefit by seizing more land, while the Greek Cypriots have diplomatic recognition and membership in international organizations, and would not likely gain in any renewed military confrontation. AnonMoos (talk) 21:46, 25 April 2021 (UTC)

Note that "the Turkish Cypriots" who say no to reunification is Tahsin Ertuğruloğlu, who identifies himself as a Turkish nationalist and also campaigned against the Annan Plan in 2004, which nevertheless was approved by 65% of Turkish Cypriots. The position of the Turkish-Cypriot government does not tell us anything about the current position of most Turkish Cypriots. It is more telling that in the 2020 presidential election the incumbent President, a proponent of reunification, lost by a small margin to a supporter of the two-state solution. But the total number of votes on candidates supporting reunification in the first round exceeded 50% of the votes, so the outcome of the election cannot be interpreted as a referendum on reunification.  --Lambiam 09:07, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

Ancient Egyptian exonym for other groups

What were the ancient Egyptian names for other lands such as Babylon, Assyria, Canaan, etc? 69.209.14.47 (talk) 08:20, 25 April 2021 (UTC)

Here are some:

Amurru: Imur

Asia Minor: Setjet

Assyria: Isur

Babylon: Beber or Babaru

Babylonia: see Babylon; also Sangar

Canaan: Kanana; see also Retjenu

Crete: Keftyu

Djahy: Djaha

Hatti: Kheta

India: Henduay

Ionia (?): Yuni or Yuni-aa

Israel (?): Isriar

Kush: Kash or Kas, later Kesh

Libya: Tjehenu, later Libu

Macedon: Migaden

Punt: Punet

Retjenu: Retjenu

Rome: Herem

Scythia: Sek or Sag

Troy: Waiuriy

Placenames like Crete and Rome can also stand metonymically for a whole civilization or empire.  --Lambiam 11:32, 25 April 2021 (UTC)

That list appears to combine names from widely separated periods of history. It's not clear why Egyptians would even need a name for Macedon before 333 B.C., or for Rome before 146 B.C, while a number of the other names date from the invasions of the Sea Peoples before 1000 B.C. The name Israel occurs on the Merneptah Stele, but Egyptians often indiscriminately referred to many groups in the general Canaan area with semi-derogatory terms which are translated as "nomads" or "Asiatics"... AnonMoos (talk) 22:00, 25 April 2021 (UTC)

Did Egypt have no trading links, perhaps via intermediaries, with Rome before the Battle of Corinth?

The poster specifically asked about lands rather than peoples or groups, but the Habiru may also be of interest. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.200.135.95 (talk) 09:52, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

Before Rome's victory in the Third Punic War (also 146 B.C.) it was a kind of regional power, and its region did not include the southeast corner of the Mediterranean. Egypt's Mediterranean Sea trade during the Ptolemaic period was conducted from the most heavily Greek-inhabited region of Egypt (Alexandria) by people who used Greek as their trade lingua franca, and were mostly not native Egyptians. Since Rome was a rather distant and not-vitally-important entity with respect to Egypt at that time, it's not clear to me why native Egyptians who did not usually engage in sea trade really needed a word for "Rome"... AnonMoos (talk) 17:05, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

I don't suppose the average Egyptian on the Thebes public oxcart service (to adapt a phrase) did, but I would have expected Achaemenid and Ptolomaic government officials concerned with foreign relations to have been aware of Rome and to have talked to and corresponded with native Egyptians in Egyptian/Demotic about it. Hence, presumably, Herem being a borrowing from Greek Ῥώμη. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.200.135.95 (talk) 19:41, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

Why would Greeks under the Ptolemies have been likely to speak of Rome to native Egyptians before about 146 BC? The Ptolemies mainly wanted native Egyptians to be peasants whose agricultural activities could be lucratively taxed, though of course they could also be temple priests, overseers, estate managers, craftsmen etc. They were not encouraged to involve themselves in Greek affairs or move to the Greek cities. AnonMoos (talk) 23:45, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

When did Egyptian names cease to be ancient Egyptian names? The name

(attested in an inscription on one of the temples at Karnak) does not come across to me as a modern Egyptian name.  --Lambiam 07:53, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

Lambiam -- as long as hieroglyphs continued in use, scribal conservativism tried to give the impression that the Egyptian language had not changed radically since Old Dynasty times (at least in formal inscriptions), and this was helped by the fact that ancient Egyptian writing basically omitted all vowels. Once Egypt was Christianized, the spoken language (Coptic) came to be written in a slightly-expanded version of the Greek alphabet (including vowels), and this revealed all the accumulated linguistic changes. In the 7th century A.D., the Islamic invasion took place, of course, setting the stage for the increasing predominance of Arabic. Some Copts have versions of old Egyptian names, such as "Pakhum"/"Pakhom" (see Pachomius the Great#Name), but not usually in a form that can be closely correlated with hieroglyphics, as far as I know... AnonMoos (talk) 10:05, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

Circumnavigation and canals

Is there any reason why USS Triton (SSRN-586) didn't use Panama Canal and Suez Canal in its circumnavigation? As far as I can see, passing through the canals still gets you around the globe, even if through shortcuts. 212.180.235.46 (talk) 10:59, 25 April 2021 (UTC)

• A submarine can not remain submerged in the canals. Blueboar (talk) 11:15, 25 April 2021 (UTC)
  • Besides, if one of the reasons for the trip is to impress people, doing it without shortcuts is more impressive. --184.147.181.129 (talk) 21:52, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

• Part of the goal was to perform the circumnavigation undetected. The Panama and Suez Canals are not open waterways that you can just quietly sale though. The canals go uphill, and therefore need massive locks. So they would have to not just surface, but contact the traffic controller, enter the traffic pattern, have the canal officials operate the locks, etc. For a submarine to go undetected, it has to avoid canals. ApLundell (talk) 03:55, 1 May 2021 (UTC)

Using this Suez Toll Calculator, it would cost $83 for Triton to transit the canal, surprisingly good value (unless I've done something wrong). Alansplodge (talk) 17:23, 1 May 2021 (UTC)

Err- $83,391.33 DuncanHill (talk) 23:01, 1 May 2021 (UTC)