Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2021 October 30

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October 30

Is this a historical image or a fake one?

Please see https://ibb.co/52h8vhY This image is being widely circulated as the only authentic photograph of [Kunnathu Kunjahammed Haji] whom many people consider to be a martyr in a revolt against the British rule in Malabar, a southern region in India. On the photograph is written "A man who would be king-- The Guardian-- 24 January 1922". I suspect the genuineness of this image because Haji, a very devout person couldn't have sported such hairstyle in 1921. This is being celebrated as part of the release of a book on him. The author of the book claims that the British didn't allow him access to the image and he got it from some French archives. This strengthened my suspicion. Can somebody access the archive of the Guardian and find out the veracity or otherwise of this image? Thanks in advance.--2405:201:F00A:208C:EDA9:B50F:E5D9:7DC (talk) 05:38, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

I can access scans of old Guardian articles through newspapers.com (thanks to The Wikipedia Library) and the image does not appear in that date's paper. The Guardian was then called The Manchester Guardian, FYI. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 07:04, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

Unless of course it's some some other "Guardian". --184.144.99.72 (talk) 08:04, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

@Firefangledfeathers, Thanks for the information. Is this report there? I mean, in the Manchester Guardian?

https://ibb.co/dkGY0By

2405:201:F00A:208C:1150:A406:8F22:6BD5 (talk) 08:25, 30 October 2021 (UTC) Now I see that the local language Wikipedia attributes the image to Sciences et Voyages of August 10, 1922. https://ml.wikipedia.org/wiki/വാരിയൻ_കുന്നത്ത്_കുഞ്ഞഹമ്മദ്_ഹാജി

There are WP:SYNTH issues here. You cannot assume the photograph was taken in 1921 unless someone says it was. The reference to "A man who would be king - The Guardian, 24 January 1922" appears beside the picture on the cover of Sultan Variamkuman by Ramees Mohammed, published by Twohorn on or about 29 October 2021. There is no representation that the picture was published with the linked Guardian newspaper report. The link does not indicate the name of the newspaper or the date of publication, but since the report is datelined "Calicut, Monday...Reuter" it is a reasonable assumption that it was published in the issue of Tuesday, 24 January 1922. The Wikipedia article's birthdate of 1883 fails verification - the accompanying reference says he was born "sometime in the 1870s". This [1] says "No photographs of him exist, as he never allowed to photograph, but everyone remembers for his trademark Red Turkish cap (Thurkkithoppi) with a Green band around it."

Sciences et Voyages was a weekly which commenced publication with issue 1 on 4 September 1919. The issue of 10 August 1922 was Issue No. 154. The National Library of France appears to possess a copy. 2A00:23A8:D89:2A01:BC4B:6E9C:EA79:D823 (talk) 15:32, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

The Guardian in 1922 would be The Guardian (Anglican newspaper). I do not know if its archives are online. DuncanHill (talk) 10:07, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

1940s illustrator in the Radio Times

The article The Dark Tower (radio play) is illustrated by a cutting from the Radio Times of the 18th of January 1946. Can we identify the artist? The style is, to me, very much of its time and is ringing a distant bell. Thanks, DuncanHill (talk) 12:09, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

Eric Fraser was one of the regular illustrators on the RT during that period. Mikenorton (talk) 19:40, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

And, (as you presumably noticed), there is an  ef  engraved on the illustration. 2603:6081:1C00:1187:FD1F:8BE3:D245:A409 (talk) 19:48, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

Many thanks both, undoubtedly Fraser, he was the distant bell! I must admit I hadn't noticed the ef at first, but that is how he initialled some of his illustrations. DuncanHill (talk) 22:17, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

Differences between American and British sign language

How come ASL simply involves making shapes with one hand while BSL involves having your hands interact with each other?? Georgia guy (talk) 12:13, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

How come "water" is uisce in Irish but woda in Polish? In general, no explanation is needed when two different languages express the same concept differently. It is more astounding if they use the same form of expression.  --Lambiam 15:47, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

Lambiam, Irish is a Celtic language and Polish is a Slavic language. That's an easy answer to any question about why words in those language mismatch; they're in 2 different branches of the Indo-European language family. Georgia guy (talk) 15:57, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

So Irish and Polish are branches of one family, which is more than one can say for ASL and BSL, which do not share an ancestor.  --Lambiam 16:54, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

ASL is derived from French Sign Language, it's creation wasn't related to BSL. Nanonic (talk) 15:59, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

In contrast, BSL is derived from... Georgia guy (talk) 16:00, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

?? Haven't you read the articles? Nanonic (talk) 16:01, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

This question was brought to my mind because recently a user named Vanisaac added the BSL representations of each letter to the letter articles in Wikipedia. Georgia guy (talk) 16:04, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

More information about that in our fingerspelling article. Spelling out letters of the alphabet is an adjunct to sign language and is generally only used for proper nouns or abbreviations. Alansplodge (talk) 17:02, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Neither ASL or BSL are branches of Indo-European, or of any spoken language. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:02, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

ASL has its share of two-hand signs, though not for letters. —Tamfang (talk) 03:23, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

mysterious sculpture

here is a sculpture, with a very fine form, yet there is no indication of who the sculptor is. A carver of this mastery most likely has more sculptures somewhere

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/719450109207311660/ may someone help me

thank you — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:5C58:1860:F580:972D:A02E:E0A2 (talk) 15:16, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

The Met, where the work is held, gives the tentative ascription "Possibly by Polly (French, active ca. 1800)".^[2] They use the same artist assignment for one other work, representing a nymph, where the artist is further identified as a sculptor and merchant of plaster decorations in Paris, based on an inscrption POLI on the back of its base.^[3]  --Lambiam 16:02, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

thank you, however I was already aware of that. perhaps I misguided by question. I curious as to who this poli is. A mythological figure in the nineteenth century entails the sculptor being of note. Maybe a last name for poli will enlighten the search. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:5C58:1860:F580:972D:A02E:E0A2 (talk) 16:09, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

I think Polly was the surname of a sculptor and merchant of plaster decorations. But I can find no further information on this person.  --Lambiam 23:38, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

ah, well thank you regardless. Sadly francois souchal's catalogue of french sculptors is only 17 and 18th centuries https://wpi.art/2019/01/07/french-sculptors-of-the-17th-and-18th-centuries/

curiously, I doubt a bit that poli is a name at all, it is odd for a french name unless the person is question has italian background, in case our search has been wrought. Furthermore maybe poli means polished or courteous in french I think — Preceding unsigned comment added by 107.77.232.54 (talk) 01:30, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Polly English (Norman): nickname for a courteous or amiable person (perhaps also sometimes given ironically to a boor), from OF poli agreeable, polite (lit. ‘polished’, past part. of OF polir, L polīre). ¶ Var.: Polley. ¶ Cogns.: Fr.: Pol(l)i, Pol(l)y. It.: Puliti (Tuscany). Sp.: Pulido (‘smart’, ‘neat’, ‘handsome’). ¶ Dims.: Fr. Pol(l)iet, Pol(l)iot. ¶ Pej.: Fr.: Poliard. —A Dictionary of Surnames by Patrick Hanks & Flavia Hodges, OUP 1988. —Tamfang (talk) 03:20, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, well, it exists as a name, furthermore tracing it it's leading us to at least one slice of a dinasty active in the trade of classical plasters [4] although dates are not particularly near of 1800. Otherwise an other link I forgot to note but only distantly related to arts is giving plenty of the same name, in an area in southern France. They do have a number of fancy palaces as it's well known down there (Nice) --Askedonty (talk) 20:51, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

thanks the mysterious sculpture remains so.. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 107.77.233.26 (talk) 03:43, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

An 1811 almanak of Parisian commerce lists a marbrier (marble worker) Poli on page 261 and again, now as sculptor–artist, on page 317. These are basically lists of ateliers or shops, sorted by the surnames of the manufacturers or merchants; Christian names are not given. He is also mentioned in a similar work from 1812 as a sculpteur-figuriste en marbre ("marble sculptor-figurist").  --Lambiam 22:33, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

Can we get broader feedback on NHS Test and Trace?

I tried to ask about a name change, as it's just not really provided by the NHS, but apparently someone took that as needing to delete the only reference to the name being misleading. Surely an encyclopedia shouldn't just be governmental press releases? 92.0.5.48 (talk) 17:30, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

The sentence "despite its name, the programme is not in fact run by the NHS" falls under no original research and is not suitable for the article. If you can find a reliable source that talks about the name being misleading, that can go in the article. --Viennese Waltz 18:57, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

Would https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/nhs-test-trace-private-sector_uk_5f6099e3c5b68d1b09c77477 be adequate? 92.0.5.48 (talk) 19:20, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

That's not for me to say. Personally, it looks like a rehash of a few people's social media posts on the subject and would not pass muster. But I don't own the article. You can add it as a source if you wish & see how long it lasts. --Viennese Waltz 19:49, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

To me it looks like standard reporting of journalistic investigation, with the mentioning of social media posts mainly for creating interest, not in support of substantive statements.  --Lambiam 23:22, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

The fact that the NHS itself calls it "NHS Test and Trace" [5] [6] [7] seems to be a counter-argument. Alansplodge (talk) 16:49, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Did an obscure Dutch rower take this photograph?

For Chinua Achebe's article I have this photography: File:ASC Leiden - NSAG - van Dis 5 - 024 - A city roundabout with a modernistic fountain and a huge pool - Lagos, Nigeria - February 14, 1962.tiff for a contemporary image of when Achebe first moved there. The image information says that a "Maarten van Dis" took it linking to Maarten van Dis. As the purported photographer would be an obscure Dutch rower I am inclined to doubt this, but is anyone able to find evidence to support the assertion? Aza24 (talk) 21:10, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

Commons has some info about the background of those photos at commons:Category:NSAG Collection. That page links to commons:Category:Maarten M.U. van Dis, showing a lot of other photos he took in Africa in the early 1960s. The commons category page is linked to the Wikidata entry about the rower. Both the info about the rower (sourced to athletics databases) and the info on the Commons page (sourced presumably to the photo archive, including this report) agree on the middle initials of the name ("Maarten M. U."), on the place where he was studying (Wageningen), and on the point that his field of study/work was engineering. There's of course nothing inherently implausible about an engineering student and traveller also having been a competitive rower at the age of 26, so I'd say we can accept that. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:40, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

Update: On Wikidata, the items about the rower and that about the photographer were merged on 25 October 2020, by User:Multichill (https://www.wikidata.org/w/index.php?title=Q99519260&diff=1297134185&oldid=1286611891). Maybe they can shed some more light on the issue? Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:45, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

Wait… the idea that the athlete and the photographer might be the same stems from a merge on WIKIDATA? And then propagated to us via COMMONS?

OH HELL NO!… this is exactly why WD is so hated here on WP.en Blueboar (talk) 21:58, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

@Aza24: Is it because he was a rower that you think he couldn't have taken a photograph of a bridge, or because he was a Dutchman? DuncanHill (talk) 22:09, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

Both :) Though if you're asking seriously, it's because I trust absolutely nothing at the commons, and the single line in his WP article did not indicate that he would have any reason to be in Lagos in the 1960s and have a good camera that early in the history of photography (it just seemed too random to be true). Aza24 (talk) 22:14, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

If this is the same Maarten M. U. van Dis, you can call him (country code +41) and ask.  --Lambiam 22:39, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

The info at Commons tells us that these photographs were made by some people, including engineer Mr. M. M. U. van Dis, as part of a group of Dutch students and some academics on a trip visiting African universities. It seems a good enough reason to visit Africa. The report of the trip links van Dis to Wageningen. How plausible is it that there were two different males of around the same age, both based in Wageningen and both named Maarten M. U. van Dis?  --Lambiam 23:10, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

1962 wasn't "early in the history of photography", there were plenty of excellent cameras around then. DuncanHill (talk) 23:17, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

Thanks all, much appreciated! Looks like the commons was right (this time.....). Aza24 (talk) 23:29, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

There are several plausible reasons why students in engineering in the 1960's would have focused on photography besides bare the pride of reporting e.g the Selenium rectifier and the Selenium meter. Though a mystery regarding the nomenclature remains. The picture being attributed to a digital Leaf camera see Metadata. The same about the following 1970 ethnic study photography https://zh.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:ASC_Leiden_-_Rietveld_Collection_-_Nigeria_1970_-_1973_-_01_-_082_Kainji_Dam._A_man_with_a_white_headscarf_above_sparkling_water.jpg (there the engineer's point of vue being rather well illustrated)--Askedonty (talk) 09:07, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Is it plausible that the photographer and the rower are the same? I suppose so. Is it verifiable? No. We should not be linking them together based on a plausibility. THAT would be a conclusion that is based on original research. Our standard is verifiability. Blueboar (talk) 17:00, 31 October 2021 (UTC)