Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2021 September 28

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September 28

First mention of Treason of the Long Knives in Welsh

The Treason of the Long Knives is the legend of a massacre of British leaders by Saxons on Salisbury Plain in the 5th century. I have been discussing the name at Talk:Treason of the Long Knives#First use of the name. According to the OED blog the name treachery or treason of the long knives was "first recorded in English in about 1604, but in Welsh (twyll y cyllyll hirion), in or before 1587." The OED itself confirms that the first use in English was by Meredith Hanmer in his Chronicle of Ireland, but not the first use in Welsh. Is there a reliable source for that? 1587 suggests Y Drych Cristianogawl, the first book printed in Wales. TSventon (talk) 12:47, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

Hi TSventon, H. G. Bohn in 1836 says the phrase is the title of a poem by Taliesin, “but the Myvyrian editors have withheld it from the public.” [1] This sounds like a reference to The Myvyrian Archaiology of Wales. However, Samuel Jenkins in 1852 also mentions Taliesin and gives the poem’s title in the Archaiology as Song on the Sons of Llyr, sourced to “vol i p 66.” [2]. You can search the Archiology online: [3] I didn’t find the exact phrase, and page 66 didn’t look useful, but did find “Fi-ad y Cyllyll hirion” on page 403, which I think is a Welsh Triads section? Hope this advances you a bit; I'm still unclear on how the various pieces in the Archaiology are dated. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 16:56, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

Thank you IP editor, I am trying to find when the name Treason of the Long Knives was first used in Welsh. The story appears in Nennius and Geoffrey of Monmouth, but not the name. I have checked your links, but unfortunately none of them led me to a reliable source. According to the Iolo Morganwg article, "the second volume [of the Myvyrian Archaiology], which collected the Welsh Triads, contained an additional "third series" of forged triads, as well as Williams's alterations to the authentic ones".

I have investigated Y Drych Cristianogawl further. a scan and description is available online on the National Library of Wales website, but it is printed in gothic script and 16th century spelling and is not searchable. Also, according to the library description, there is a longer manuscript version and the book's subject is the Four Last Things rather than Welsh legend. TSventon (talk) 09:56, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

Yes, that is annoying - I skim-read about half of it to see if the phrase jumped out (one's eyes get used to gothic script quite quickly), but results were inconclusive, and marginal notes refering to books of the bible were discouraging. There was a poem called The Worthines of Wales written by Thomas Churchyard in 1587, I don't know if that is worthy of investigation?  Card Zero  (talk) 17:36, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

Card Zero, thank you for your suggestion and even more thanks for skim-reading half of Y Drych Cristianogawl. A facsimile republication of The Worthines of Wales is on Google Books and is all in English or Latin, so that didn't help. It did lead me to find cy:Wiliam Cynwal died c. 1587 and whose writings in Welsh included a chronicle (Pen. MS. 212). I fear I am clutching at straws. TSventon (talk) 22:45, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

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