Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2022 April 12

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April 12

George III inbred

Was George III considered inbred given his parents were pretty distant cousins, like third or fourth at least? Was porphyria the result of royal inbreeding or just a hereditary mutation that could have occurred in any family? Similarly Queen Victoria’s been described as inbred yet her parents are not that closely related. I understand that hemophilia was a possible mutation that arose because of her father’s advance age at her birth. Seems that’s the simplistic telling of these two royals that they were inbred and which was why they had hereditary diseases. 67.170.133.177 (talk) 05:19, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

Inbreeding in humans generally implies incest or consanguinity, so I don't think that would apply in the cases you mention. Shantavira|^{feed me} 08:20, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

The historical pedigree collapse among European royalty resulted in a much reduced gene pool, possibly enough so that one might expect some inbreeding effects. One would need to examine the medical conditions of a substantial family tree to identify any positively, though. A candidate is the well-documented occurrence of facial deformity in the Habsburg family.^[1] No ancestors of Queen Victoria have been found who were known to suffer from haemophilia; see Haemophilia in European royalty.  --Lambiam 10:06, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

It's only conjecture that George suffered from porphyria, which is indeed inherited. Recent research suggests that bipolar disorder is more likely [2] [3] in which heredity may be a factor but is not the only cause. Alansplodge (talk) 10:54, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

The form of porphyria he had, acute intermittent porphyria, is caused by a dominant gene. Dominant traits are not more common in inbred populations than outbred ones, nor are sex-linked traits that arise in men (e.g. hemophilia). Inbreeding increases the incidence of recessive traits like cystic fibrosis, red hair, straight hairline, and underbite.

Incidentally, there are numerous descendants of George's with porphyria, which would be unlikely if he didn’t have it. 24.76.103.169 (talk) 16:28, 17 April 2022 (UTC)

• Here is the family tree of George III of Great Britain. His father was, of course, George II of Great Britain who was married to Caroline of Ansbach. George II parents were George I of Great Britain and Sophia Dorothea of Celle. Caroline's parents were John Frederick, Margrave of Brandenburg-Ansbach and Princess Eleonore Erdmuthe of Saxe-Eisenach. Checking the parentage of each of those shows that none of his four grandparents nor eight great-grandparents were related in any obvious way. The kind of inbreeding present in, say, the Spanish Habsburgs was rather profound, but does not appear to have been an issue for the House of Hanover. --Jayron32 11:51, 12 April 2022 (UTC)
  • George III's father was, in fact, Frederick, Prince of Wales, the eldest son of George II, who died nine years before his father and so never succeeded to the throne. Proteus (Talk) 12:13, 12 April 2022 (UTC)
    • Yes, of course. I am a total idiot. His mother was actually Princess Augusta of Saxe-Gotha, who also was not closely related to anyone noted above. --Jayron32 13:04, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

      But Princess Augusta herself *was* the result of a First Cousin marriage (her grandmothers were sisters to each other). So George III did have two GGparents in common, which is equivalent to being the child of a Second Cousin Marriage. Note, Princess Augusta's double Great Grandmother Anna Maria of Mecklenburg-Schwerin (the mother to the sisters) was herself the result of a First Cousin Marriage where her grandmothers were sisters. (Note, this doesn't go up a *third* set of three generations) Naraht (talk) 16:17, 14 April 2022 (UTC)

      • That's still not much in terms of inbreeding, compared to say Charles II of Spain. In the 5 generations leading up to Charles, one would expect 62 different persons (2+4+8+16+32 = 62), if there were no consanguinity. Charles has 20 ancestors occupying those 62 potential slots. --Jayron32 16:59, 14 April 2022 (UTC)

Augusta probably inherited two copies of some of Anna Maria's genes, but George inherited only one of any of these; so no, his condition is not "equivalent" to being the child of a second cousin marriage. —Tamfang (talk) 03:18, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

The most common forms of hemophilia (and, incidentally, colorblindness) in male humans result from a single mutation on the X chromosome, and are thus not a sign of inbreeding. —Tamfang (talk) 02:13, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

The nearest common ancestors I find of George III's parents are Johann II, Duke of Saxe-Weimar and Dorothea Maria of Anhalt, four generations from Augusta and five from Frederick. For whatever that's worth. —Tamfang (talk) 04:14, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

Mundus Verlag

Hi Folks, Does anybody know what Mundus Verlag would be publishing just after the second world war and why somebody would be sending copies of it from France to Germany? scope_creep^Talk 22:06, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

Just found this. They were a Swiss publisher of communist literature. scope_creep^Talk 22:12, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

Mundus was a component of Deutscher Verlag, with the goal to "...set up branches in all occupied countries to facilitate the effective promotion of national-socialist propaganda." Renders, H. (2012). "Hitler's European Publishing Ambitions". Quaerendo. 42 (3–4): 231–240. doi:10.1163/15700690-12341256. de:Mundus disambig has established 1934 Berlin, and then 1945 Basel, Zürich and Stuttgart. Can't find anything postwar, WorldCat only lists a few titles for Basel and Zürich up till 1948, but for Stuttgart into the '80s. fiveby(zero) 20:03, 13 April 2022 (UTC)

The only connection i can find for the Berlin, Basel, and Stuttgart publishers besides the name is the one line at DE, and the Stuttgart titles aren't the same character. fiveby(zero) 20:51, 13 April 2022 (UTC)