Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2022 December 6

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December 6

Role of Thomas J. Hudner Jr.

Thomas J. Hudner Jr. states:

• Introduction: "Following the incident, Hudner held positions aboard several U.S. Navy ships and with a number of aviation units, including a brief stint as executive officer of USS Kitty Hawk during a tour in the Vietnam War, before retiring in 1973."
• Section Later Navy career: "In 1968, he was assigned as the operations officer for the Southeast Asia Air Operations division of the U.S. Navy."

As the latter assignment sounds pretty important, it seems inconsistent to leave it out of the introduction. But on this occasion it be asked - is the wording accurate? The source is only left in the Wayback Machine and states more precisely that he was the "J-3 Action Officer for Southeast Asia Air Operations". What does this exactly mean? What did he have to do and to decide in that role? --KnightMove (talk) 05:57, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

If nobody here knows (I don't), a better place to ask might be Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history. Alansplodge (talk) 11:54, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

J-3 is a directorate of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. As long as the terminology and responsibility hasn't changed it "assists the Chairman in carrying out responsibilities as the principal military advisor to the President and Secretary of Defense, developing and providing guidance to the combatant commanders and relaying communications between the President and the Secretary of Defense and the combatant commanders regarding current operations and plans." An action officer just means someone who works for "general staff" and doesn't serve in the field. It doesn't necessarily refer to a high level of responsibility. He could have been a very junior officer who happened to be assigned to work for the J-3 directorate. this indicates that the term is often used for an analyst of some sort; often someone whose job it is to write reports and stuff like that. --Jayron32 12:16, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

Thank you very much. --KnightMove (talk) 19:50, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

Largest True Terra Nullis between 60N and 60S

What is the largest piece of land between 60N and 60S that there is no evidence of *any* human habitation prior to the beginning of European exploration. (1500-ish). I was looking at the Desventuradas Islands when I thought of this, but my *guess* is that the central Island of the Kerguelen Islands ("La Grande Terre") is probably the largest (at about 49S). Ideas?Naraht (talk) 16:18, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

I would have thought Cape Verde, but it appears that Kerguelen is quite a bit larger. Human habitation did arrive quite late to New Zealand, but it was first settled some 300 years earlier than your time frame, unless you count the Viking Age (i.e. Iceland, Greenland, and Vinland) as "not the right kind of European exploration". --Jayron32 16:34, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

Falkland Islands and Galapagos Islands maybe depending on strictness of "*any* human habitation"? Actual European Discoveries . WP has East Falkland at 2,550 sq. mi. citing[1]. WP article has Grande Terre, 2,577 sq. mi. tho, but no citation. fiveby(zero) 16:51, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

If you want a mainland location, the tepuis of South America are pretty inaccessible; but even added together they are smaller than the largest Kerguelen island. -- Verbarson  ^talk_edits 17:13, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

List of islands by area has East Falkland at 7,040 and Kerguelen (main island) 6,617 km², neither cited. Which is greater is going to depend on ensuring the way the shoreline is measured JSTOR 4300016 is the same for both. Also, would you consider the Lac Marville lagoon part of the "piece of land"? fiveby(zero) 18:41, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

So, the coastline problem does not extend to uncertainty in the area of enclosed shapes, like islands and countries. Even if there is a fractal boundary with an indeterminate length, the area bounded by that fractal boundary can have a well-defined area to any arbitrary level of precision. See, for example, something like the Koch snowflake. --Jayron32 18:45, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

I did not mention the coastline paradox. There are many sources of possible discrepancies when comparing two measurements of areas on the earth's surface, for shorelines some are discussed in the linked paper. fiveby(zero) 19:50, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

Greenland was occupied by Inuit north of the Arctic Circle (66°33'49.3"N). Norfolk Island, Pitcairn Islands, Macquarie Island, Christmas Island, Cocos (Keeling) Islands.
Sleigh (talk) 20:59, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

Mauritius.
Sleigh (talk) 21:04, 6 December 2022 (UTC

OP responses in some order

East Falkland then, I guess. Iceland is north of 60N, almost all of Greenland is north of 60N (maybe .5% is south of that line) and Vinland was already populated. when the Vikings got there. Not particularly interested in mainland locations unless a single one exceeds the size of East Falkland. Not sure why length of coastline would be part of this discussion, size would generally be area, not coastline. Wasn't familiar with Lac Marville, if it is close to make a difference, I'll count it as a tie. (http://islands.unep.ch/Tiarea.htm which the List of islands by area has as a reference. (and the largest of the Galapagos Islands appear to be smaller than either East Falkland or Kergulen.Naraht (talk) 04:45, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

Global Island Explorer from USGS has East Falkland 6512.21570071 km2 and Kerguelen 6582.74943252 km2 using Sayre et al. 2018. As far as i am aware this is the most up to date global coastline coverage. You can use their viewer with an imagery basemap for an idea of how accurately they are representing the coastlines. Other numbers might be from for instance NOAA GSHHG which for high latitudes i expect is CIA World Data Bank II and probably manually digitized charts, but who knows? See note 'e' under Cautionary note on data quality for the UN Environmental Programme source of List of islands by area. fiveby(zero) 14:11, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

Fiveby Thank you. After further research, I haven't see an estimate that showed a difference of significantly more than the 1% that that shows. However given that closing off the Falkland sound or extending the Choiseul Sound just a little bit *drastically* alters size of the island there by combining/splitting them, I'm good with giving it a tie. Also according to History of the Falkland Islands there *may* have been pre 1500 visitations by the Yaghan, but it is still very much a matter for debate. Kergulean, OTOH, as far as I know has never even had the proposal that someone was there prior to 1700.

So, the Falklands are (probably) the largest Terra Nullis close Island Group and Kergulen the largest that it is absolutely sure didn't even have visitationNaraht (talk) 18:12, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

Just FYI, it's Terra Nullius. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 19:55, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

You're welcome, Kergulen wins because it makes for much more interesting reading and viewing. fiveby(zero) 17:24, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

Medieval watchman

Was the job of a medieval watchman for a castle in a tower to watch out for enemies a prestigious or second-rate job?--Christie the puppy lover (talk) 18:47, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

The modern terminology is a picket or a sentry. AFAIK, the job has always tended to fall on the shoulders of the general soldiery. It's a vital, but shitty job, and if there's one thing that officers and/or nobility avoid, it's shit work, even important shit work. If you're thinking of the lyrics of "All Along the Watchtower", I don't know that Princes spent much time keeping the view. --Jayron32 18:52, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

Now, one thing I will add is that the person in charge of such details is usually called the Warden, or in some contexts maybe a Castellan, and that may be a prestigious job, but Wardens aren't sitting in a guard tower watching for enemies; they are likely the ones who oversee such details rather than do it themselves. --Jayron32 18:57, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

Related topics: Watchkeeping and Lookout, though those are mostly naval terms for a broadly similar job. Matt Deres (talk) 02:21, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

Moving back from medieval times to antiquity, the watchman was a very significant archetype who appears hundreds of times in the Bible. The watchman was an exceptionally important figure who communicated directly with Kings and with God. The watchman warned the people of impending military attacks and of their moral failings, often both at the same time. The watchman often blew a loud horn that everyone could hear. When the people ignored or disobeyed the watchman, catastrophe of various kinds befell them. When the watchman himself was corrupt or incompetent, disaster was inevitable. Here are some relevant Biblical verses. Cullen328 (talk) 06:31, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

According to Ezekiel 33, the Prophet Ezekiel was himself a watchman, assigned to watch over the ruined city of Jerusalem, and after being exiled to Babylon, to warn the Jews of the imminent threat of further, more severe destruction of Jerusalem and the Jewish people if they did not repent. Cullen328 (talk) 06:42, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

If you care about walled towns rather than castles, ro:Bastionul Croitorilor din Cluj-Napoca explains that the Tailors' Bastion of Cluj was financed by the tailors guild, who had the duty of watch there. Each of the towers was financed by a guild. I suppose there were similar arrangements in Medieval self-governed cities. --Error (talk) 10:26, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

In the Netherlands, the town guards were organised into Schutterij, a later exanple is depicted in Rembrant's painting The Night Watch. By that time, their military function was rather secondary to their role as a sort of middle-class drinking club. Alansplodge (talk) 16:07, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

You may be interested in St. Mary's Trumpet Call in the city of Kraków, which is sounded every hour from the main church tower of the city, but may once have been played by watchmen at the city gates. The traditional tune stops suddenly, a modern legend suggests that this represents the watchman being shot in the throat by the arrival of the Mongols. Alansplodge (talk) 16:21, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

The Wakeman of Ripon was an important figure, reputedly from the year 886, until in 1604 the last Wakeman became the first Mayor. He appointed a Hornblower to continue the daily blowing of the horn, which continues today. --ColinFine (talk) 16:33, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

Louise Buenger Robbert (1994) Money and prices in thirteenth-century Venice, Journal of Medieval History, 20:4, 373-390, DOI: 10.1016/0304-4181(94)00809-4 has two lists of salaries recorded for Venice between 1224 and 1282.

• On the list of higher officials there is one castellan, the castellan of Castri Novi, who received 75 lib per year. This is one of the lower salaries among this set; here are some representative others to show the range. 30 for a supervisor over usury, ragpickers and canals; 30 for guard to a podesta; 50 for the associate of a count; 100 for a physician; 100 for nobleman guarding against contraband; 150 for notary of S. Samuele (though other notaries only got 50); 200 for overseer of Chioggan salt; 300+ for various podestas; and 2,000+ for various doges, etc.
• On the list of lower positions there is also a castellan, of Castrum Almesii, who gets 20 lib, and watchmen on Chiogga, who got 50 den. That watchman salary is here the lowest recorded. Castle guards got the same. (Some others to show range, all in lib: 1 for servant to a galley captain; 3 for an armed oarsman, 4 to 5 for a crossbowman; 10 for captain of guard at frontier with Este.)

I’m sure some smart person will chime in with the meaning of lib. and den., and whether 50 den means half a lib. If you need full list you can request a copy at WP:RX. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 18:42, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

Not smart, but I grew up with pounds shillings and pence, represented as £sd, which in turn we were taught stood for librae, solidi and denarii - 12 denarii (pennies) to a solidus (shilling) and 20 solidi (shillings) to a libra (pound), so 240 denarii (pennies) to a libra (pound), which is the Carolingian monetary system, in use over most of Europe for centuries. According to the description here, that was also the case in Venice up to about the second date in that source, with only denarii being actual coins, the larger values being just for accounting. Mikenorton (talk) 19:35, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

Cool, thank you! That would mean the watchman is an even lower-paid job. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 16:06, 8 December 2022 (UTC)