Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2022 March 20
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March 20
edit"Are Tories born wicked?"
editG. W. E. Russell, in Collections and Recollections, famously tells us that the little daughter of a great Whig statesman asked her mother "Mama, are Tories born wicked, or do they grow wicked afterwards?", and was given the reply "They are born wicked, and grow worse". Do we know which little daughter of which great Whig? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 22:25, 20 March 2022 (UTC)
- Finding the query with various replies by the mother beginning with an 1840 novel:
- Bulwer, Lytton (1840). The Budget Of The Bubble Family. Vol. 1. p. 318. "* This enlightened query was really put a short time ago, by a young lady, of Whig extraction, to her mother!"
- Stanhope, Philip Henry (1889). Notes of conversations with the Duke of Wellington, 1831-1851. p. 265. May 9, 1841 "...story I had heard of Lady Minto."
- "The Chinese Classics". The Spectator. October 2, 1875. "...a certain little Miss Eden asked her Whig parent some fifty years ago,..."
- I suppose "a certain little Miss Eden" refers to the influential Eden family; she could for example theoretically have been a daughter of George Eden (1784–1849), but then the name may have been made up by the writer purely to embellish and lend verisimilitude to the anecdote. --Lambiam 11:46, 21 March 2022 (UTC)
- "Lady Minto" probably refers to Mary Brydone, the wife of Gilbert Elliot-Murray-Kynynmound, 2nd Earl of Minto. If Stanhope indeed heard the story from Lady Minto, some time before May 9, 1841, it is likely she took it from Lady Lytton Bulwer's recent novel and dissed this up as a "true story". --Lambiam 12:06, 21 March 2022 (UTC)
- No more likely than it being the other way around - that Lady Lytton Bulwer heard the story and thought "Ooh! That'll make a nice little anecdote to work into my potboiler" - indeed she says as much in a footnote. Stanhope has it as one of Lady Minto's own daughters. One can easily imagine a young Fanny asking the question. DuncanHill (talk) 12:40, 21 March 2022 (UTC)
- A Margaret Elliot (c1832 – 1901), author of Workhouse Girls reported as claiming it was a cousin[1]. I think she would be a daughter of Gilbert Elliot and granddaughter of Hugh Elliot brother of the first earl.
...one of the Adam family.
? fiveby(zero) 13:37, 21 March 2022 (UTC)- Margaret was the daughter of Gilbert Elliot, Hugh's son. I haven't found an Adam yet. DuncanHill (talk) 14:11, 21 March 2022 (UTC)
- Perhaps Adam is a slip for Eden? Hugh's brother-in-law was William Eden, 1st Baron Auckland, and Eden/Adam is an understandable mistake. DuncanHill (talk) 14:30, 21 March 2022 (UTC)
Horace Mansfield told how a little child Elliot (of the great Whig family) asked its Mama,...
[2]- The first earl (Gilbert Elliot-Murray-Kynynmound 1751-1814) had a sister who married into the Edens (Eleanor Eden Lady Auckland née Elliot 1758-1818).
- Therefore, her eight daughters, the misses Eleanor (b 1777), Catharine (b 1778), Elizabeth (b 1780), Caroline(b 1781), Mary Louisa (b 1788), Mary Dulcibella (b 1793), Emily (b 1797) and Frances (b 1801) Eden, were all nieces of the first Lady Minto (Anna Maria Elliot 17??-1829).
- And therefore children of their six brothers were also cousins to various degrees of the second Lady Minto (Mary Elliot-Murray-Kynynmound née Brydone)and the third Lady Minto (http://www.thepeerage.com/p2701.htm#i27004 Emma Elliot-Murray-Kynynmound née Hislop 18??-1882]). That peerage site only lists a marriage and children for the youngest brother (Robert Eden Baron Auckland 1799-1870, who had five daughters, the misses Eleanor (b 1826), Emily Dulcibella (b 1832), Florence (b 1835, Emma (b 1836) and Maria (b 1836) Eden. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 14:42, 21 March 2022 (UTC)
- Forgot to mention, "Miss Eden" without the first name often means the eldest (currently unmarried) daughter. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 16:32, 21 March 2022 (UTC)
- A Margaret Elliot (c1832 – 1901), author of Workhouse Girls reported as claiming it was a cousin[1]. I think she would be a daughter of Gilbert Elliot and granddaughter of Hugh Elliot brother of the first earl.
- No more likely than it being the other way around - that Lady Lytton Bulwer heard the story and thought "Ooh! That'll make a nice little anecdote to work into my potboiler" - indeed she says as much in a footnote. Stanhope has it as one of Lady Minto's own daughters. One can easily imagine a young Fanny asking the question. DuncanHill (talk) 12:40, 21 March 2022 (UTC)
- "Lady Minto" probably refers to Mary Brydone, the wife of Gilbert Elliot-Murray-Kynynmound, 2nd Earl of Minto. If Stanhope indeed heard the story from Lady Minto, some time before May 9, 1841, it is likely she took it from Lady Lytton Bulwer's recent novel and dissed this up as a "true story". --Lambiam 12:06, 21 March 2022 (UTC)
- That every boy and every gal / That's born into the world alive / Is either a little Liberal / Or else a little Conservative! Fal, lal, la! (Iolanthe; or, The Peer and the Peri, Act II). Alansplodge (talk) 17:47, 22 March 2022 (UTC)
- The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. (Psalm 58:3) fiveby(zero) 18:29, 22 March 2022 (UTC)
- That every boy and every gal / That's born into the world alive / Is either a little Liberal / Or else a little Conservative! Fal, lal, la! (Iolanthe; or, The Peer and the Peri, Act II). Alansplodge (talk) 17:47, 22 March 2022 (UTC)