Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2022 March 29

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March 29

Repairing the St Nazaire Raid

When did the damage to the St Nazaire drydock get repaired? HMS Campbeltown (I42) says that it happened in 1947, while St Nazaire Raid and Louis Joubert Lock say 1948. 49.198.51.54 (talk) 06:12, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

In Louis Joubert Lock § St. Nazaire Raid, we read, "The first ship to be accommodated after being repaired was the former German ocean liner Europa, which on refit became the SS Liberté, given to France by the United States in compensation for the loss of the Normandie in New York." According to book sources, the damaged ship was towed to Saint-Nazaire in 1947, arriving 11 November 1947.^[1] The lock must therefore have been operational then.  --Lambiam 08:06, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

Agreed; an English language source for the 1947 date is:

Ironically, when the dock was finally put back into service, it would be for the benefit of the long-suffering inhabitants of the port of St Nazaire, and the first ship to be re-fitted in it, arriving on 11 November, 1947, would be an ex-German liner, sailing under her new name, Liberté.

Dorrian, James G (2001). Storming St. Nazaire: The Gripping Story of the Dock-busting Raid, March 1942. Barnsley, South Yorkshire: Pen & Sword Books Ltd. p. 285. ISBN 978-0850528077.

Alansplodge (talk) 11:41, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

A slight nitpick, but the day the ship arrived in port isn't necessarily the same as when it was put in drydock. It may have been towed to St Nazaire a few weeks early, for example to avoid winter storms on the ocean. PiusImpavidus (talk) 12:51, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

Indeed, but our article relates that she was refitting at Le Havre in December 1946 when a storm caused her to break her moorings, collide with the wreck of SS Paris (1916) and then sank. She was raised in April 1947. It is unlikely that she would have been moved before the dock was ready for her, so it seems safe to follow the sources, unless you can find anything to the contrary. Alansplodge (talk) 13:16, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

Le Havre is the port the worst damaged in Europe ( ..reconstruction..) after the Normandy landings with about 350 sunken ships in its waters, St-Nazaire by contrast seems to have had almost no other trafic than coal importation, and the business of its own reconstruction. Note the Lock was quite early repaired because of "découverte à Gustavburg d'une porte écluse" designed by the Germans for St Nazaire: Aspects (..) de le reconstruction de St Nazaire. --Askedonty (talk) 20:51, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

So this "rapid repair" directly contradicts the timing given in Louis Joubert Lock ("the Joubert Lock remained out of commission for the rest of the war, and it did not function again until 1948").  --Lambiam 23:45, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

I do not think it does. The Joubert Lock or Normandie Dock is one part of the shipyard itself ( bassin Penhoet, see the "St Nazaire docks 1942" 3D view at Louis Joubert Lock#St. Nazaire Raid. Most of the bassin extends a further length to the right of the picture, it also includes a row of three other (smaller) drydocks side by side in fact ), so the ex-Europa might have been moored -and prepared for two month or more before the Joubert Lock deemed operational again. --Askedonty (talk) 09:10, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

• Sorry, I'm obviously completely wrong. The Saga Pearl II with a similar beam has been able to enter the port in 2016 but it's not considered usual and her length is about on third less, the same going for draft. The entry port is not allowing for draft over 8.5 m as Europa 9.5 m. --Askedonty (talk) 10:42, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

And we have yet the French liner Île_de_France, length :791 ft (241.1 m), beam : 91 ft (27.7 m), from the shipyard Penhoet, arriving at St Nazaire for refit in April 1947 ? Badly sourced, SS Île de France, post-war career and demise, but the date of 21 April 1947 at least is not contradicted in La Ville de Boulogne-Billancourt, médiathèque According to that video, starting at 20:00, the refit is between 1948 and 1950 however. The correct statement would perhaps be "on 21 April 1947 she was returned to the French line"? At the same time, this could have come from prudent uncertainty with a comment from the seventies: Île de France is known to have been back at sea in 1949 after a refit during two years. No precise date again on that youtube video but Île de France definitely is to be seen inside the shipyard. ( Near the beginning of the video also a view of "Liberté" in restored drydock ) --Askedonty (talk) 13:43, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

The 3D view at Louis Joubert Lock shows the Joubert Lock (labelled "Normandie Dock") and the Penhoët basin as separate entities. Of these, only the lock could be drained and serve as a dry dock.  --Lambiam 23:34, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

It is (currently ?) owned by the port (fr:Grand port maritime de Nantes-Saint-Nazaire), an entity created in 1966. It doesn't mean that it's not used by Penhoet (whatever that is), as a user. See for example Ouest-France: Saint-Nazaire pourquoi ce nom de forme joubert: "350 m long, 50 m wide and just over 15 m deep, the Joubert form offers large vessels direct access to the Penhoët basin. As a lock, it serves at the same time as a form of refit for the maintenance and construction of ships, sometimes submerged, sometimes dry." (translation Google) --Askedonty (talk) 08:10, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

The Ateliers et Chantiers de Saint-Nazaire Penhoët (founded in 1862 as Chantiers Scott but renamed in 1881 after the expansion of the Saint-Nazaire harbour with the Penhoët basin) merged in 1955 with its neighbour the Ateliers et Chantiers de la Loire (established in 1881) to form the current Chantiers de l'Atlantique. Penhoët is the name of a Saint-Nazaire neighbourhood that became the eponym of the shipyard.  --Lambiam 17:48, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

If not yet a definitively concluding answer as to the exact conditions exposed by Alansplodge, above, a rather strong suspicion thereof nonetheless. According to an engineering firm involved in related maintenance, "The downstream door was in fact the former upstream door, displaced in 1948." (ISM études techniques ingénierie et maîtrise d’œuvre) This rearrangement reasonably would have happened as the new replacement door (the Gustavsburg door) was to be set in place. That door was the one needed to replace that which had been destroyed during the 1942 raid, so in order to make the Louis Joubert Lock fully functional again. But we do not know from what kind of source that 1948 date precisely was taken from. --Askedonty (talk) 15:25, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

• In April 1948 Liberté is at dry in the inside but the "upstream" access to the Penhoet basin is not operational: aerial photograph, forum. Ile de France is not featured on the cliche. --Askedonty (talk) 08:35, 1 April 2022 (UTC)

Note that Liberté was already put at dry (bassin de radoub n°7) in le Havre after being raised in April 47. N°7 dock is even deeper than the Joubert; although narrower. This shows that further expected technical capacities were available at St-Nazaire rather than at Le Havre. --Askedonty (talk) 09:58, 1 April 2022 (UTC)

I interpret the "arriving" in the English source as meaning "arriving at the dock". The French source states that the ship was "entrusted" to the shipyard on 11 November 1947.  --Lambiam 23:06, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

Have we "arrived" at a consensus as too how we can edit these articles in a consistent way? Alansplodge (talk) 09:39, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

Museum Extention Project

I need help finding reliable sources for the Museum Extention Project. This was a project under FDR’s New Deal programs. I have found a book from a library in Florida. However, there is not much details other than that collection of exhibits. Any aid would be greatly appreciated! LoveLeylaLoveleyla (talk) 18:25, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

• The Museum: A Short History of Crisis and Resilience (p. 45 onwards) Alansplodge (talk) 19:32, 29 March 2022 (UTC)
• WPA Museum Extension Project 1935 from Bienes Museum of the Modern Book looks to have some essays, list of state projects, and maybe a useful bibliography
• Miner, Curtis (Spring 2008). "Art with a Purpose: Pennsylvania's Museum Extension Project, 1935-1943". Pennsylvania Heritage.