Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2022 November 11
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November 11
editBirth year of Marie Bracquemond
editI’m trying to take a short wikibreak, but I can’t help wonder if the birth year for Marie Bracquemond is correct. It’s either 1840 or 1841, but the sources (authority control, etc.) generally use one or the other. The French authority says it is 1841, so I’m inclined to go with that, but I don’t know how to confirm or verify which is correct. Thank you in advance. Viriditas (talk) 23:35, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
- The amount of quite specific detail ("
Born Marie Anne Caroline Quivoron-Pasquiou on December 1, 1840, in Argenton-en-Landunez near Brest, Brittany, she was the offspring of an unhappy arranged marriage.
") in this article makes me think it is based on authentic information. The article states it obtained information from an unpublished biography of the Bracquemonds written by their son. --Lambiam 09:19, 12 November 2022 (UTC)- For a better citation in WP: Bouillon, Jean-Paul [in French]; Kane, Elizabeth (1984). "Marie Bracquemond". Woman’s Art Journal. 5 (2): 21–27. (WP:Library) contains much of the same information. fiveby(zero) 18:10, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
- Oops, that is already cited in the article. Morlaix 1841 below probably comes from Geffroy, Gustave (1919). Oeuvres de Marie Bracquemond. pp. 5–6. fiveby(zero) 18:34, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
- For a better citation in WP: Bouillon, Jean-Paul [in French]; Kane, Elizabeth (1984). "Marie Bracquemond". Woman’s Art Journal. 5 (2): 21–27. (WP:Library) contains much of the same information. fiveby(zero) 18:10, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
- Which French authority? It seems that 1840 is correct, but this [site], for example, gives 1841 as the date of birth, but the place of birth (Morlaix) is wrong. On this [genealogy site] The date of birth is 1840, but in the notice (in French) it's 1841- The Centre généalogique du Finistère [[1]] based on the genuine birth certificate, gives: Naissance - 01/12/1840 - Landunvez (Argenton) QUIVORON Marie Anne Caroline fille de Saint Théodore, capitaine au commerce, âgé de 30 ans et de Aline Hyacinthe Marie PASQUIOU, âgée de 20 ans. Témoins : Garo Joseph 46a cordonnier, oncle. Le Hir Gabriel 59a instituteur, bourg de Landunvez, bienveillant. Identifiant CGF de l'acte : N-1840-2910900-51315-07818 - (Relevé 'Etat civil NMD >=1793'). The access to the genealogy site is not free. I got the data from [[2]]. Based on these data, for me no doubt her birth year is 1840. - AldoSyrt (talk) 17:13, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
- See authority control for France, for example: [3][4] Fiveby has traced the error to Geffroy 1919, but how does one go about updating the authorities who have the wrong info? Viriditas (talk) 21:57, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
- You could try the "Flag this page" tool in the footer, i would point to "Marie Bracqeumond".
{{cite encyclopedia}}:|work=ignored (help); Missing or empty|title=(help) If Oxford Art Online were working through WP:Library we could check if Benezit has been updated[5]. fiveby(zero) 01:27, 13 November 2022 (UTC)
- You could try the "Flag this page" tool in the footer, i would point to "Marie Bracqeumond".
- See authority control for France, for example: [3][4] Fiveby has traced the error to Geffroy 1919, but how does one go about updating the authorities who have the wrong info? Viriditas (talk) 21:57, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
- What a mess! The Bnf notice states that her birth year is 1841 [6], but the source it refers to is: "Bénézit, 1999 . - The women impressionists : a sourcebook/ Russell T. Clement, Annick Houzé and Christiane Erbolato-Ramsey, 2000", in this latter the birth year is 1840. Trying to correct the error may be not easy because Data.bnf.fr extracts, transforms, and aggregates data from separate databases produced in different formats into a common database in order to link them together and make them interoperable. [7] - AldoSyrt (talk) 11:18, 13 November 2022 (UTC)
- Thank you, kind sir or madam! At this point, wouldn’t it make sense for Wikipedia to establish itself as its own authority control for these other sites to use and cross-check if they desire? We can only do so much to control our own accuracy; maybe it’s time these other sites pick up the slack? Apologies, but this is really frustrating. Viriditas (talk) 19:42, 13 November 2022 (UTC)
- I don't think the various authority control systems are intended for the purpose you are implying. They are about finding information and resources, not providing biographical data. They are "authoritative" within their system. You can look at VIAF 5809326, which shows the records for various major catalogs. With today's persistent identifiers in theory these catalogs might be able to change "Bracquemond, Marie, 1841-1916" to "Bracquemond, Marie, 1840-1916" in their databases; but we don't really know the work required and the drawbacks of doing this in their systems. One VIAF listing is wikidata:Q273552, wikidata's entry for Marie, which is i think intended to provide what you are asking for. But as open data how "authoritative" can it ever be? fiveby(zero)
- I agree with your assessment. I don’t really understand how AC is used, and my conception how it should be used is obviously very different. I’m just frustrated that there isn’t a way to easily verify established facts like a simple birth year. Perhaps Wikidata will eventually take up this role and purpose. Viriditas (talk) 21:17, 14 November 2022 (UTC)
- I don't think the various authority control systems are intended for the purpose you are implying. They are about finding information and resources, not providing biographical data. They are "authoritative" within their system. You can look at VIAF 5809326, which shows the records for various major catalogs. With today's persistent identifiers in theory these catalogs might be able to change "Bracquemond, Marie, 1841-1916" to "Bracquemond, Marie, 1840-1916" in their databases; but we don't really know the work required and the drawbacks of doing this in their systems. One VIAF listing is wikidata:Q273552, wikidata's entry for Marie, which is i think intended to provide what you are asking for. But as open data how "authoritative" can it ever be? fiveby(zero)
- Thank you, kind sir or madam! At this point, wouldn’t it make sense for Wikipedia to establish itself as its own authority control for these other sites to use and cross-check if they desire? We can only do so much to control our own accuracy; maybe it’s time these other sites pick up the slack? Apologies, but this is really frustrating. Viriditas (talk) 19:42, 13 November 2022 (UTC)
- What a mess! The Bnf notice states that her birth year is 1841 [6], but the source it refers to is: "Bénézit, 1999 . - The women impressionists : a sourcebook/ Russell T. Clement, Annick Houzé and Christiane Erbolato-Ramsey, 2000", in this latter the birth year is 1840. Trying to correct the error may be not easy because Data.bnf.fr extracts, transforms, and aggregates data from separate databases produced in different formats into a common database in order to link them together and make them interoperable. [7] - AldoSyrt (talk) 11:18, 13 November 2022 (UTC)
- So "
Landunez
" in the quote above is a typo. --Lambiam 05:04, 13 November 2022 (UTC)- Yes indeed. See Landunvez on English Wikipedia and on the French one the reference to Marie Bracquemond People born in Landunvez - AldoSyrt (talk) 10:32, 13 November 2022 (UTC)