Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2022 October 26

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October 26

What percentage of Jews in Israel could be considered "indigenous"?

I saw someone equate Palestinian political violence to Native American violence against white settlers in the Americas and equate all violent acts by Israel, its military, police and settlers to violence white settlers inflicted on Native Americans. He also went on to assert that Palestinians have a right to resist Israel which he described as a settler-colony formed out of conquest that is intent on building and maintaining a militaristic ethnostate by way of forcing Palestinians out of their homes and out of the state and replacing them with predominantly European Jewish people. If the Jews in Israel are indigenous, however, much of his argument falls apart. What percentage of Jews in Israel could be considered "indigenous"? Or are Jews actually white and no white can be considered "indigenous" except the Sámi and the ones in Russia? If the latter is the case, I will be sure to discuss it in my upcoming Village pump proposal. StellarHalo (talk) 04:24, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

At one point, the PLO basically stated that it would expel all Jews who arrived after 1917 (the year of the Balfour Declaration and the British conquest of the region from the Ottoman Turks). However, your question unfortunately is rather meaningless in some ways. For example, well over one million Israeli Jews either came from Arab countries (such as Iraq and Yemen) or descend from such immigrants. Are they supposed to return to those countries where they're not wanted, and where they were undeniably "indigenous", but from which their communities have been systematically ethnically cleansed?? There were Jews in Libya long before there were any Arabs there, but in 1967 about 99% of them were expelled from the country. And Israel is "militarized" because of constant Arab military threats against it, not to mention constant wannabe-genocidal rhetoric about throwing the Jews into the sea or similar... AnonMoos (talk) 10:35, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

From Palestinian Jews:

When the First Palestinian Congress of February 1919 issued its anti-Zionist manifesto rejecting Zionist immigration, it extended a welcome to those Jews "among us who have been Arabicized, who have been living in our province since before the war; they are as we are, and their loyalties are our own."

The Palestinian National Charter, as amended by the PLO's Palestinian National Council in July 1968, defined "Palestinians" as "those Arab nationals who, until 1947, normally resided in Palestine regardless of whether they were evicted from it or stayed there. Anyone born, after that date, of a Palestinian father—whether in Palestine or outside it—is also a Palestinian. The Jews who had normally resided in Palestine until the beginning of the Zionist invasion will be considered Palestinians."

The article does not provide an answer to SH's bold question.

There is a degree of melting pot among Israeli Jews of different ethnic origins. It would be difficult to ascertain the identity of a descendant of both 19th-century Palestine Jews and recent arrivals. The article includes:

Actor, director and activist Juliano Mer-Khamis, the son of an Israeli Jewish mother and a Palestinian father, described himself in a 2009 interview with Israel Army Radio as "100 percent Palestinian Arab and 100 percent Jewish".

How indigenous would he be?

--Error (talk) 11:58, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

Also the indigenousness of some Palestinians can be disputed. Famously, Yasser Arafat:

Arafat was born in Cairo, Egypt.[1929] His father, Abdel Raouf al-Qudwa al-Husseini, was a Palestinian from Gaza City, whose mother, Yasser's paternal grandmother, was Egyptian. Arafat's father battled in the Egyptian courts for 25 years to claim family land in Egypt as part of his inheritance but was unsuccessful.[...] Arafat was the second-youngest of seven children and was, along with his younger brother Fathi, the only offspring born in Cairo. Jerusalem was the family home of his mother, Zahwa Abul Saud, who died from a kidney ailment in 1933, when Arafat was four years of age. [...] Arafat's first visit to Jerusalem came when his father, unable to raise seven children alone, sent Yasser and his brother Fathi to their mother's family in the Moroccan Quarter of the Old City.

About this Moroccan Quarter:

It was set aside for "the benefit of all the community of the Maghreb of all description and different occupations, male and female, old and young, the low and the high, to settle on it in its residences and to benefit from its uses according to their different needs." Soon after, Jews, many also from North Africa, were also allowed to settle in the city. By 1303, Maghrebi people were well established there, a fact attested by the endowment of a Zāwiyah, or religious institution such as a monastery, made by 'Umar Ibn Abdullah Ibn 'Abdun-Nabi al-Maṣmūdi al-Mujarrad for this quarter. [...] Originally developed for Maghrebi people, over the centuries Jewish, Christian and Muslim people from Palestine and elsewhere had at various times taken up residence there. By the time Israel decided to demolish their houses, roughly half of the zone's inhabitants could trace their origins back to Maghreb immigrants.

Palestine Arabs moved around the Ottoman Empire according to their possibilities. They would be attached to their families and places rather than to an extended territory. The establishment of a Palestinian identity uniting Arab Christians and Arab Muslims from a certain territory is the result of nationalism in general, and Arab nationalism and Zionism in particular.

--Error (talk) 11:29, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

• Indigenous peoples is not a quantifiable concept that has a strict, bright-line definition. Typically indigenousness is defined by relation to a colonizing culture; it's a relational definition, not one based on a specific date or time or location, but based on the relationship between two cultures. For example, who is indigenous to the country of England? Well, the English people are. The English culture as we know it today really didn't become a thing until well into the High Middle Ages however. When the Norman conquest happened, there were no English. There was the Anglo-Saxon people, who were in some sense indigenous in relation to the Normans in the 11th century, and to the Danes in the previous centuries (i.e. Danelaw); but the Anglo-Saxon people were colonizers in relation to the native Celtic Britons, who would have been indigenous in that relation, however the Celts displaced an earlier culture, having only themselves arrived in Britain in the 1300s BCE or so. We can do these kinds calculations ad infinitum, because over history humans have been highly migratory, and culture is highly fluid as it changes and evolves over time. Ultimately, the most useful way to think about these things is "what is the relationship between these cultures". Are the cultures co-existing in the same space with an equal power relationship? Is one acting in a colonial relationship towards the other? Etc. The "Definitions" section of the above linked article on Indigenous peoples is informative here, to wit, "living descendants of pre-invasion inhabitants of lands now dominated by others. They are culturally distinct groups that find themselves engulfed by other settler societies born of forces of empire and conquest"." --Jayron32 21:10, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

Instead of asking for a percentage of "indigenous" Jews, one might consider the somewhat complementary percentage of descendants of Jewish immigrants. However, this also runs into definitional issues. For example, should descendants of immigrants of the First Aliyah be counted? Their ancestors, at the time of the proclamation of the State of Israel, will mostly have been already second- or third-generation residents. The section Demographics of Israel § Jews gives the percentage of Israeli Jews whose "recent ancestral background" by paternal country of origin is Israel as 37% in 2008 and 44% in 2012. I do not see a definition of "recent".  --Lambiam 17:10, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

Abraham-Louis Breguet

Please, can you upload on commons this file about his son: it's from here? Thank you very much. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.13.89.132 (talk) 09:43, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

The whole page or just the portrait? I believe uploading the page would be a breach of copyright. Alansplodge (talk) 14:22, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

Just the portrait. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.207.152.161 (talk) 14:26, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

It's far to small to make a useable image, can you get a better one? I don't have access to the original, but try opening the page and press "print screen" (PrtScr) on your keyboard. BTW, we already have this image of Antoine-Louis Breguet if that helps. Alansplodge (talk) 15:57, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

Then can you search for a new site about that book? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.207.152.161 (talk) 16:37, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

I've uploaded a better version at commons:File:Antoine-Louis Breguet (2).jpg  --Lambiam 16:39, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

Thank you very much. If you have that site, can you see if there are other paintings about Abraham-Louis Breguer, his grandson, or their family that aren't on commons yet? Moreover, can you search for a painting about Abraham-Louis Breguet along with Napoleon Bonaparte during a dinner at Louvre? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.207.200.183 (talk) 18:05, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

Completorium

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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
The hours of prayer, taken over from the Jews, were Prime, Terce, Sext, None, and Vespers (Evensong). Later two more were added to bring them up to the magic number seven - Compline and Nocturns. The Latin name for Compline is completorium, i.e. it completes the devotions ("The last of the Canonical hours of prayer") [1]. It used to be broadcast on BBC Radio 4 around 11 PM on a Saturday night. All services at Canterbury Cathedral are live-streamed - Evensong is streamed daily at 5:30 PM. Every so often Will Adam comes on Twitter [2] to announce he is doing Compline at 5:00 PM, but it is always streamed at that time. Why does it precede Evensong? 92.19.172.198 (talk) 12:52, 26 October 2022 (UTC) See Compline#Anglican usage. Evening Prayer (or Evensong if there's a choir) was originally an amalgam of the Catholic services of Vespers and Compline first published in the Book of Common Prayer during the Reformation in England. The canonical hours were replaced by the Daily Office in the BCP, which consisted of only two services, Morning and Evening Prayer. The Anglican version of Compline is a recent add-on which can be led by a lay person, and although recognised as a late-evening liturgy, there is no particular timing prescribed in it. I imagine that if a church were offereing both Evening Prayer and Compline, then Evening Prayer would indeed come first, but I don't think that often happens. The modern Compline is a quite brief affair which is probably better suited to a social media audience. The caveat is that I'm not a theologian, so I stand to be corrected on this. Alansplodge (talk) 14:14, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

Where might one find Vardmyln?

In The compt buik of David Wedderburne a mention on page 141 is made of an Alexander Piersone, the husband of David's Sister-in-law to whom he gives a red gilded stirrups and girdle, as well a New Testament text. This passage also mentions that (as far as I understand it) this transaction took place either at Vardmyln or the package was delivered to Vardmyln by David. However I am not entirely sure on where Vardmyln might be. Searches seem to relate the term possibly to some scandanavian area, which could be plausible considering the wide range of Scottish diaspora at the time, but I cannot source and exact location. If anyone here might have an idea on where (or what, if I've been misled due to an error in my translation of the old text) this place might be Copter Faustus (talk) 12:59, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

On page 112 there's a reference to "the Vardmyln", on a page where another ship is named, so probably a ship not a place. 92.19.172.198 (talk) 13:12, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

Not finding anything direct, but an Alexander Peirson was a Scottish MP at that time and held lands near Dundee, so perhaps the name of an estate there? Alansplodge (talk) 13:54, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

Yeah that could be a possibility. Looking at that passage, in my head I'm currently translating that as "I lent George Auchinlek my wooden pint-sized flagon with the money (or possibly just the message to ask for them) to send to the Vardmyln for the vinegar there that I still want." Separating the word into "Vard" and "Myln" seems to bring up some results (Vard) (Mylne) from which my best guess is that it could be a place. There are various locations within dundee starting with Castle (Castle Street and Castle Terrace comes to mind for being close to the port area of Dundee). Copter Faustus (talk) 14:05, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

The name also occurs in the variant spelling "Vardmylne" on page 108: "Ane obligatione maid be Henry Betoun wryttin and subscryvit be him and the gudeman of Ardowny and Alexander Peirsone of Vardmylne his cautioneris of j^e lib and 4 bollis meill of the dait the 26 and 27 October 1596 and subscryvit be Westhall Johne his brother".^[3]  --Lambiam 12:57, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

Ardowny and Vardmylne are mentioned in one breath in that passage, which may suggest they were not located far apart from each other. Here, on page 178, Bamff charter 163, we read, "the teinds of the lands of Ardowny in the parish of Monyfuith", which I suppose corresponds to Monifieth in Angus, Scotland.  --Lambiam 13:31, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

Wardmylne/Wardmilne/Wordmilns/Wardmills was also a place in the Forfar/Dundee/Perth regions under discussion here, mentioned repeatedly (with all these spellings) in the family records collected here. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 19:29, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

The heading of that family-records page refers to "the Wardmylne of Arbroath". I suppose there was only one Wardmylne, which then must have been a property located in Arbroath. Indeed, in the book History of Arbroath to the Present Time we find: "the mills called the common mill and Wardmill", ^[4] as well as "Wardmill Croft"^[5] and "the Wardmills".^[6] In 1552, "the lands of Wardmill", property of the Abbey, were granted to Sir John Marjoribanks.^[7]  --Lambiam 09:18, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

Pinpointing it, perhaps, 19th-century maps show a Ward Mill Brick & Tile Works and a Ward Mill Hill on the (then) northern edge of Arbroath on the eastern bank of Brothock Water. Google Maps shows a Wardmill Road in the same place. --Antiquary (talk) 12:28, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

In Eminent Arbroathians: being sketches historical, genealogical, and biographical, 1178-1894 (p. 86), a "Mr Alexander Peirson" is listed as a councillor of Arbroath in October 1624. Alansplodge (talk) 13:27, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

The name ward mill road is also visible on the first of these 19th-century maps, near the bottom of the cut out, where it meets cross mill wynd.  --Lambiam 14:18, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

An extensive report on Arbroath Abbey found online^[8] contains, as Appendix 1 on page 61, an annotated map. By its appearance this map is from the 19th century. It shows a structure with the label Ward Mill. Additionally, it carries the annotation The Wardmill, mill croft, and cellarer's croft. The structure is also visible on the first of the 19th-century maps showing the Ward Mill Brick & Tile Works, but is not labelled there. On that map it is just south of the southern tip of the body of water labelled Mill Dam.  --Lambiam 18:17, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

Traditional clothing of Central Asia

What are the traditional clothing that men wear in Kazakhstan, Tajikistan, Kyrgyzstan, Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan? Are they common? Donmust90 (talk) 15:46, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

See Central Asian clothing and Kazakh clothing. Alansplodge (talk) 16:17, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

The Wikipedia categorization system is the most useful way to get answers to questions like this; Category:Clothing by ethnicity and Category:Clothing by country and Category:Clothing by culture are perhaps most useful here. --Jayron32 20:55, 26 October 2022 (UTC)