Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2022 September 10

Welcome to the Wikipedia Humanities Reference Desk Archives
The page you are currently viewing is a transcluded archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the current reference desk pages.

September 10

Commonwealth currency

Commonwealth coins and currency (or at least UK, Canada, and I think Australia) that I'm used to seeing, all had QE2's portrait. Will they switch those over to KC3? Will they recall the old ones? Any other changes likely besides the portrait swap? Also, QE2 is a very familiar and standard abbreviation while KC3 as far as I know is something I just made up. I don't remember ever hearing of QE2's predecessor being called KG6 or anything like that. Why the distinction? Thanks. 2601:648:8201:5DD0:0:0:0:256B (talk) 01:23, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

Old coinage won't be recalled. Expect a new portrait on next year's issues. I saw shillings and florins from at least one previous reign circulating in England in 1986. (A shilling became 5 new pence, a florin 10.) Such coins, being heavy (imitating former silver coins of significant value), were later recalled and replaced with smaller ones, including those that had Elizabeth's head. —Tamfang (talk) 01:38, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

Possibly some people would insist that QE2 is a ship and only a ship, named not for the late queen but for an earlier ship of the same company. The correct abbreviation for the monarch is EIIR; now CIIIR or C3R, remains to be seen which he prefers (I've seen both styles in Scandinavian royal cyphers). I just hope he's not enough of a wanker to go for “C 3.0”. —Tamfang (talk) 01:42, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

Ah thanks, I didn't know about royal cyphers. I had heard of the ship but I thought QE2 referred to the queen, to distinguish her from QE1 of the so-called Elizabethan era. QE2 (album) is also a record album by Mike Oldfield, named after the ship, fwiw. No idea about C3.0 but if I get to be monarch, maybe I'll use C++ ;-). 2601:648:8201:5DD0:0:0:0:256B (talk) 03:18, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

Pre-decimalisation, the copper currency was valid back to 1860 and the silver currency back to 1816. I found pennies dated 1860 in change occasionally, and once an 1820 shilling. One year I think the local branch of the Trustee Savings Bank ran a competition to submit a penny of as many different years as possible (to be deposited in a savings account?) I sent in an awful lot but two people submitted the complete set (not including 1933, of course). There was a rumour that 1920 pennies were worth eight pounds (do the math - 12 x 20 x 8 = 1920). For those who don't know, all stamps which don't have a barcode must be used before 31 January 2023, when they become invalid. That deadline was fixed months ago, but the Post Office is now saying that all stamps with the late Queen's portrait will be invalidated from that date. 2A00:23C4:570A:601:1D49:1F37:425A:A93A (talk) 10:29, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

In the States coins older than 1965 rarely circulate at face value unless they're 5 cents or pennies cause that's when the silver was removed. You'd have to be pretty desperate to do that but accidents happen. I've never seen a 5 cent coin old enough to have an American Indian on one side and a buffalo on the other (though coins are legal tender forever Americans seem to spend old designs less if both faces' designs rarely circulate). Which is why the oldest American coins circulating at face value more often than the silvers are wheat pennies: same Abraham Lincoln face 1909-forever?, wheats on the back instead of the national capital's Lincoln monument (which wasn't even designed yet in 1909). 1809: Lincoln born, 1859: 1 year before national fame and election. Every 50 years after: He gets a penny (2009-2058 is a shield). Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 13:30, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

From 1582 to 1919 British silver coins were struck in Sterling silver (.925 fine). In 1920 they were debased to .500 fine, and from 1947 on they have been base metal. DuncanHill (talk) 14:19, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

And you switched from .900 gold to paper in 1914 while we didn't till spring 1933. Our coins were .900 silver till they hoarded the mint half to death in the 60s. The mint hoped they could end the silver price speculation by dumping enough coins lol. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 20:58, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

This routinely happened in monarchies throughout history. Since the introduction of euro coins, the obverse sides of coins from Belgium, Netherlands, Spain, Monaco and Vatican City were changed after changing the monarch, but the old coins are still in circulation (for the former three; coins from the latter two are so rare that they're all in the hands of collectors). And before, around the year 2000, here in the Netherlands coins from 1960–1980 with a portrait of queen Juliana (abdicated 1980) were still common and occasionally one could even find coins minted in 1948, still featuring queen Wilhelmina. Coins can last in circulation for decades; recalling them all and minting replacements at once when the design changes slightly is just a waste of money (pun intended). Of course, introduction of the new obverse with the portrait of the new monarch could be an opportunity to change the reverse too. Changing the size, weight or composition is another matter. In 1948, the composition of some Dutch coins was changed, so those from 1947 and before were recalled. PiusImpavidus (talk) 10:37, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

I can't find a source at the moment, but I recall reading that there was a rush to get the new king's coins and stamps released in time for the 1937 coronation, which was only six months after the accession, having been originally planned for the abdicated Edward VIII. We don't know the date of Charles's coronation yet, but they have generally been held in the late spring or summer, in the (usually vain) hope that the weather might be kinder. Elizabeth II's coronation was 16 months after her accession, in contrast to the first Elizabeth, whose rushed coronation was only two months after accession and it snowed. Alansplodge (talk) 11:42, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

Yesterday I heard an interview with the head of Royal Mail, which issues British stamps. He said that they had received guidance from Charles' office that he did not want anything to be wasted because of the change of monarch - so stamps already printed with the queen on them will continue to be issued until stocks are used up. That is a good example of Charles' environmentally friendly approach, and I suspect that the same principle will be applied to banknotes, coins, and anything else that will eventually require a changed design. Wymspen (talk) 14:26, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

Thanks everyone. Regarding US coins, we don't often see pennies from before 1973, since they were made of copper before that and zinc afterwards. There have been times when the copper in old pennies was worth more than $0.01, so I'm sure a lot of them got melted. Also I notice that QE2 (the ship) was named after QE1 (the earlier ship), but QE1 was not named after either of the monarchs called Queen Elizabeth. Rather, QE1 (launched in 1938) was named after the spouse of George VI, who was then the Queen Consort and later (after Elizabeth II's accession) called the Queen Mother. I really shouldn't care about this stuff but I find it interesting.

My favoorite tweet about Charles III: "you mean England has a male queen now? This woke stuff has gone too far!". 2601:648:8201:5DD0:0:0:0:256B (talk) 19:00, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

Zinc cents are from 1982, not 1973. There was a copper price spike in the 70s that caused aluminum wires etc but it wasn't till the 80s that cents became zinc. It's been about 10 years since I last paid attention to years and there was some melt price-induced loss (including hoarding that wouldn't have happened anyway) but I didn't see a major jump at 1982. Eventually they get to someone who keeps cents for the rest of their life or get lost, smooshed into ovals by trains or tourist re-pressers or worn/rusted in fountains/damaged and replaced by the next bank they reach. And the older, more archaically designed and more circulated a coin is the more likely it's passed though someone who removes anything that has or might one day have numismatic value above face value or at least kept it for their collection of as many years and mint marks as they can get. Also with the benefit of hindsight they banned exporting or destroying large amounts of pennies (though not hoarding) around 2006 and the profit incentive per coin or pound is much lower than when silver was $50 an ounce (a bit more than $1 of face value) in 1980 (when dollars were worth more). Copper was an I think then record ~1 cent per gram in 2006 and pre-1982 cents are 3 grams so it could be less than 1 cent per unsorted penny before it was made illegal. I've still noticed a few silvers in my change (only one better than a dime: a 1950s quarter). The oldest nickel I found was from the 40s and the oldest penny was 1919. This was the mid-2000s so as old as a 1930s penny today. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 19:53, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

To be clear, the U.S. government did not withdraw pre-1964 dimes and quarters (the U.S. rarely demonetizes coins). Rather, private individuals took them from circulation when their bullion value exceeded their face value. The U.S. government has done nothing about the fact that the penny has no useful economic purpose for so long, that now the nickel has little useful economic purpose. AnonMoos (talk) 17:44, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

I know but presumably an individual piece of metal would get replaced with a better one by the time it's in worse condition than the worst we see in circulation (I know for sure that this is how bills die. The first time they go to a bank above wear level X they're destroyed and a new one takes its place). Eventually America's going to have to get over its dislike of coins bigger than quarters cause laundromats and vending machines are starting to fill up faster and you can hardly buy anything with a quarter anymore. Some washing machines take multiple loads of quarters now, you have to put a buttload of quarters in a harmonica of grooves, push the metal tray into the washer against some hidden spring resistance cha-chink then do it again. In the New York City metro area the once-rare dollar coins are common in the 21st century cause they've been in train fare vending machine change for many years but a cashier was suspicious as hell of them only a few hundred kilometers away. To be fair those fake gold reverses looked like Native American casino tokens (the earlier fake gold bucks and the big quarter-looking ones before that look more like legal tender). Many major dollar-sized currencies even have 2 unit coins and no bills below 5, the most valuable being £2 I think. And New Zealand released a $5 coin which later surpassed £2. Except for a brief approximate parity in 2015 the NZ$5 coin has been worth more since 2009. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 19:56, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

Y'all don't have bill accepters and card readers on your washers, dryers, and vending machines in NYC? --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 18:39, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

Some do, many don't. Except for vending machines, most vending machines take at least bills and coins. Transit vending machines take credit, debit, $0.05, $0.10, $0.25, $1 metal, $1 paper, $5, $10, $20 and $50 and only give change in the coins they accept. Some time after inception in 1999 they realized it's more efficient to invent a smaller model that only takes card and replace about half of the machines with them cause they're so much smaller when they don't have to hold all those coins. Even though the big ones use the highest $/pint coin, only give up to $9 of change and block the coin slot if you add too many milliliters of coins! That's a lot of coins (the small ones also still have to hold the magnetic strip fare cards). According to this from 2019 NYC laundromats are still mostly quarters even though home laundry machines are a space-hogging luxury here. Newer washing machines have a square numerals price display instead of like a sticker and a vending-machine style slot where you put up to 20 or more quarters. Instead of the groove set that sometimes has owner-blocked outer groove(s). Whenever inflation raises the price they remove a metal blocker. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 21:38, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

One reason why the U.S. dollar coin hasn't caught on, is that there was a big mistake in the late 1970s when the modern version was first introduced -- it was too similar in size to a quarter. For practical use of coins, you have to be able to basically feel the differences between different denominations of coins in your hand without having to look closely at the coins. It's highly unlikely that the U.S. will knock a zero off our currency (something which the U.S. has never done before, and which some people in the U.S. associate with Weimar Germany or Zimbabwe), but it wouldn't be a bad idea to simulate this by discontinuing the penny and nickel, and introducing a workable dollar coin (of a different size). Of course it's possible that physical currency (coins and bills) will be abolished before we ever get around to this... AnonMoos (talk) 23:23, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

Same color and edge grooves too, later fixed with the 2000 Sacagawea dollar. Smooth edge. Later they cut text into the smooth edge. I never thought about the feel thing before. I'd just take a handful out of my pocket, find what I need with my eyes and put the rest back in my pants. The dollar was 1.5 inches wide for about 200 years which was too big to circulate much in the 50s (before the speculation), at least in the East (which had more tolerance for high face value premiums over raw material cost). Since the late 70s the dollar coin has apparently been 1.04331 inches, I wonder what's the best balance between quarter size differentiation and bulk. They'd have to upgrade or replace all the vending machines if they make it a bit bigger though. And if it's too big it'll delay Middle America's acceptance of the $5 coin in the future.Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 17:28, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

Wouldn't it be better to make the dollar stronger so that it is actually worth something? Why have we accepted the idea that the basic currency unit of a country has to trend downward in value? How is that a good thing? --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 18:31, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

See Inflation#Positive. --174.95.81.219 (talk) 19:17, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

In NZ, it's currently estimated it will take a few years for Charles to appear on coins and longer still for bank notes [1] and [2] With reference to the other stuff circulating cent coins in NZ date to 2005/2006 at the earliest since that was when the new smaller composition coins with a different composition were introduced Coins of the New Zealand dollar. However $1 and $2 coins could date to 1990/1991 in theory. Nil Einne (talk) 04:30, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

What are the odds he dies or abdicates before any coins or notes are released? --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 18:42, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

He's apparently in good health and British monarchs generally don't abdicate, only one in a thousand years has voluntarily done so. Alansplodge (talk) 19:57, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

In Canada, in 1936, the mint was working on designs with King Edward VIII when he abdicated and they had to start over with King George VI's portrait. The new coins weren't ready by the start of 1937, so to prevent a coin shortage they reissued the 1936 coins with a dot next to the date (in effect, indicating "not really"!). Essentially the same thing was done in 1947-48 (but using a little maple leaf) when George VI's title changed due to the independence of India. If those in charge still feel the same way now, then we might well be starting to see "2022 maple leaf" coins minted in early 2023. --174.95.81.219 (talk) 22:07, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

In Canada, the currency will eventually switch over, but it may take some time as the denominations get refreshed at different intervals. For example, 20s get refreshed every five years and are due next year so they'll likely transition easily. But if Liz had held out another year or so, it would have been another five years until our 20s got uglier. Each denomination goes at its own rate, so it will be uneven regardless. There is also some talk about removing the portrait altogether or going to Canadians a la Canadian ten-dollar note and $5 note, but it's just chatter at this point AFAIK. Matt Deres (talk) 13:59, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

Who is Joe Stiglitz replying to in this "reply", Daly

In this short "reply", Stiglitz is answering criticisms from Daly, but he doesn't cite any sources. What is the citation to the original criticism by Daly, or is it from someone else? Llamabr (talk) 11:30, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

It is a book review; see Herman Daly for a list of possibilities in the Selected Publications section. DOR (HK) (talk) 16:42, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

Possibly an article in the same publication. DOR (HK) (talk) 18:29, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

It doesn't seem like a book review to me. First, if he were reviewing a book, he'd mention the book. Second, he seems to be replying to a particular narrow argument, which I assume was from a recent paper, probably in the same journal, and maybe even the same volume. Llamabr (talk) 17:42, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

Probably Daly here, and some background. fiveby(zero) 19:14, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

Abhira tribe, Habiru

Is the Abhira tribe descended from the Habiru? Or even vice versa? Thank you. Rich (talk) 13:01, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

Do you have some reason to suppose they might be? Judging from our articles on the subject, the Habiru (who were not a tribe) lived at least a thousand years earlier then, and far away from, the Abhira. In the absence of any evidence, this is like asking if the Canadians are descended from the Akkadians, because they both have "k-d" in their names. ColinFine (talk) 18:34, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

Richard_L._Peterson -- Habiru begins with a guttural consonant (velar or pharyngeal fricative, depending on the branch of Semitic), while Abhira doesn't even really contain an ordinary [h] consonant, but rather a breathy voiced [b]... AnonMoos (talk) 17:43, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

Interesting, does that make a connection very unlikely linguistically? Rich (talk) 17:58, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

Historical and geographical factors already made the connection very unlikely, and the linguistic comparison didn't do anything to overcome this pre-existing barrier... AnonMoos (talk) 18:01, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

Abhira and Biria. Japanese and Javanese. Or, as ColinFine said, Akkadian and Canadian. Coincidental look-alikes are all over the place. You need more than than before someone would think there might be a linguistic connection. -- kwami (talk) 23:59,3 11 September 2022 (UTC)

Voltaire described some similar efforts as a style of etymologizing in which "the vowels count for nothing, and the consonants for very little"... AnonMoos (talk) 23:22, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

I just think it's wiser to leap to a speculation and ask on the Reference Desk, than to make a snap decision to cut down all bridges with Occam's razor. Rich (talk) 00:12, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

Also 1). Since Habiru were present all the way from Sumer to Canaan in the second millennium bce, which is a stretch of 1000 kilometers, I don't see why it is improbable that a clan of them couldn't have been 2000 or so kilometers to the east of Sumer at the time of Alexander the Great, whether or not Habiru were that far east in the second millennium bce. It's only a few kilometers per year.

2) Maybe the Assyrians relocated some of the 10 lost tribes of Israel at Assyria's outer eastern border as a buffer? It's still up in the air among some scholars, I've heard, whether the Hebrews can be identified with Habiru. Rich (talk) 01:16, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

Richard_L._Peterson -- Unfortunately, your effort was preceded by over a century of loose and improbable speculations about long-distance Biblical connections, almost none of which has gained any degree of mainstream scholarly acceptance (see British Israelites, Jesus' "tomb" in Kashmir, the Aquarian Gospel, etc etc etc), so it's difficult not to be a little cynical about your effort when it's not accompanied by any hard specific facts, but merely by a vague general word resemblance. Ancient peoples could certainly move thousands of miles in some cases, but mainly across zones where the climate and terrain were familiar to them and/or when they could continue to use the animals or crops that were familiar to them. The Habiru, insofar as they were a separate ethnic group (and not just bandits or poor people or malcontents within a civilization) seem to have been mainly desert-based, so that they would have to cross inhabited agricultural Mesopotamia, climb the mountainous Iranian plateau, and then descend it on the other side to get to the general Indus river delta area. That's a lot of different ecological zones... AnonMoos (talk) 03:17, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

that makes senseRich (talk) 04:05, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

Do the colors on the aromantic asexual flag mean anything?

If the pertinent sections of the Pride flag article aren't wrong on the subject, the colors on the asexual pride flag represent asexuality, gray-asexuality and demisexuality, allies and community respectively, while the stripes on the aromantic one represent aromanticism, the aromantic spectrum, aesthetic attraction, gray-aromanticism and demiromanticism, and the sexuality spectrum. I wonder what the colors on the aroace flag could mean. – MrPersonHumanGuy (talk) 18:45, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

There's nothing ovbious about it, now perhaps John Sullivan could tell. --Askedonty (talk) 19:36, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

The colors in your gif look kind of faded, evoking a less powerful physical force driving the person. That is just guessing on my part though. I didn't know such a flag even existed. 2601:648:8201:5DD0:0:0:0:256B (talk) 20:14, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

Until recently, I wasn't aware of that particular flag either. – MrPersonHumanGuy (talk) 20:32, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

Those flags were created recently by specific persons and/or organizations. You'd have to reach out and ask that person or organization directly. --Jayron32 15:36, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

I can't help but think {{Color sample}} would've been a better way of illustrating the top comment: ("...represent   asexuality,   gray-asexuality and demisexuality,   allies and   community respectively..."). Rob3512 (Talk) 18:47, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, I had to highlight "community" to be able to read the word. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 19:03, 12 September 2022 (UTC)