Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2023 January 5

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January 5

2023 Speaker of the United States House of Representatives election

Hi, there. The US House of Representatives Speaker election has been on the news recently and I learned a peculiar aspect about it:

The House can't kick off the new Congress or swear in new members until a speaker is elected.[1]

In other words, only representative-elects can vote in this particular election. In normal House votes, only Representatives can vote (and Representative-elects cannot vote).

1. Is there any other US legislative body (both federal or state level) where the member-elects have the power the cast votes (in particular circumstances)?

2. Is there any legislative body elsewhere in the world where the member-elects have the power to cast votes? Helian James (talk) 01:26, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

I believe the Northern Irish Assembly remains in gridlock precisely because of this system/format. doktorb _words^deeds 02:33, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

What makes this situation peculiar is that in most legislative systems, the members' swearing-in takes place before the first formal business, such as electing the speaker. Members who for one reason or another have not been sworn in thus cannot take part in any formal business. Xuxl (talk) 14:57, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

Convention for text rotated vertically

Rotated anticlockwise 90°

(Unsure to which desk this best belongs; please move it if needed.)

When rendering text sideways, is it recommended to rotate it anticlockwise 90° e.g. as in this image, which I feel is more natural (but when the items are read from top to bottom as in the left column, they're in reverse order), or clockwise? Does anyone know of online reference discussing pros and cons of both styles?

Thanks,
cmɢʟee⎆τaʟκ 07:51, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

Book spines are anti-clockwise. Alansplodge (talk) 09:48, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

Really? All the spines on the books next to my desk at the moment are rotated clockwise (i.e. the text is read from top to bottom). This wasn't always a consistent system (if you look at books from, say, the 1940s or 1950s, the text often reads from bottom to top), but in my experience it's now very rare to have spine text rotated anti-clockwise. Proteus (Talk) 09:55, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

Quite right, clockwise it is. I had my clocks in a muddle. Alansplodge (talk) 15:18, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

This is forever frustrating for me. German spines are nearly universally bottom-to-top. English language spines are overwhelmingly top-to-bottom. So when I go down my shelves, e.g. in the Heinlein section or the Asimov section or the Niven section, I tend to get whiplash. Ebooks are a god-sent... --Stephan Schulz (talk) 10:01, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

My head tilts a bit to the right, and I always wonder whether it would be otherwise had I grown up browsing non-English bookshelves. —Tamfang (talk) 19:58, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

See Bookbinding#Titling, which discusses national differences and some of the pros and cons. -- Verbarson  ^talk_edits 10:06, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, everyone, but I'm more concerned about text in an online graphic than a book spine. Is there an established convention for this use-case? cmɢʟee⎆τaʟκ 14:29, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

I find the consistent anticlockwise rotation of text in your diagram helpful, as it makes it easier to compare the figures given on the left and right. Otherwise, I would find the right-hand text a bit unusual.

When rotating text for long headers on narrow columns in a spreadsheet, I use clockwise rotation. I suppose that this reads the heading towards the column it applies to. -- Verbarson  ^talk_edits 15:05, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

Thanks very much, @Verbarson: Re spreadsheets, I find putting the start of the header nearer the column more useful, especially if it's left (bottom)-aligned, as in Template:Vertical_header. cmɢʟee⎆τaʟκ 15:44, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

Masquerade (book) did it both ways on every page: anticlockwise on the left border, clockwise on the right.  Card Zero  (talk) 12:09, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

A quick check of some Ordnance Survey maps shows a similar pattern: border text too long to be inserted horizontally, and not otherwise aligned with map features (eg angled to label a road/river leaving the map) is turned anticlockwise in the left border and clockwise in the right. This presumably accommodates the natural head movement of a user wielding a large sheet of paper. -- Verbarson  ^talk_edits 14:59, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

This convention makes left and right border text equivalent to text in an upper border, once the page is rotated. But it would make as much sense to treat left and right border text as equivalent to text in the bottom border, and thus rotate the text the opposite way. The former seems to be the convention and the latter doesn't. This may be entirely arbitrary.  Card Zero  (talk) 01:49, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

@Card Zero: Many thanks for the research. That's a very interesting observation. I suppose a map is large enough that the viewer is considered to be "in" the map.

I suppose a reverse phenomenon is board-game boards such as Monopoly, for which players are presumed to be sitting around the board! cmɢʟee⎆τaʟκ 15:44, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

I looked at Google Maps renderings of street maps for some cities with rectilinear street grids. The first thing I found is that if a street is not precisely north-south, the lettering is placed so as to give the least rotation from horizontal; for example, the name of Yonge St. in Toronto (which is slightly anticlockwise of true north-south) reads downward whereas 7th Ave. in Manhattan (which is slightly clockwise) reads upward. I then looked for cities that have streets that do seem to be precisely north-south, for example Seattle, and I found that those names read downward (i.e. rotated clockwise). On the other hand, on the Toronto Transit Commission's official map, the street grid is rotated so that streets appear to be exactly north-south and east-west, and on that map, the name of Yonge St. reads upward. Based on this awfully limited evidence I draw the conclusion that different mapmakers do not follow a common standard. --174.89.144.126 (talk) 10:14, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

Thanks a lot for the research. I'm "glad" that I'm then free to pick whichever looks better. cmɢʟee⎆τaʟκ 15:44, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

Location of the British Embassy in Paris in 1783

I have read that the British Embassy was located in rue des Petits-Champs in 1783 [Aspinall-Oglander, Cecil Faber (1956). Freshly remembered: the story of Thomas Graham, Lord Lynedoch. Hogarth Press p.18]. Have tried to ascertain that this is true, with no luck. I have left a message on the Embassy's FB page, but I am not very confident that this will be noticed, and I need this clarification rather quickly. If anyone can lead me to a helpful source, I would be most grateful. Anne (talk) 08:55, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

I got a search result from FRANÇOIS BENOIS, MARTIN-ELOI LIGNEREUX AND LORD WHITWORTH: LEASING, FURNISHING AND DISMANTLING THE BRITISH EMBASSY IN PARIS DURING THE PEACE OF AMIENS, 1802-03, but don't have time now to scour through it (it's easy to open a free account if you don't have one).

Another search result from KEY PLAN TO THE "PLAN DE TURGOT". I'll have a look later on if I get the chance. Alansplodge (talk) 09:43, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for this, Alansplodge. I did a word search on the first JSTOR article, but nothing came up for the rue des Petits-Champs. However, alarmingly, it stated that the 3rd Duke of Dorset was the ambassador in Paris 1783-89. That really sets the cat among the pigeons, since I had taken it to be true that the Duke of Manchester was in office in 1783. If you have time, later, I'd be grateful for anything further you might add regarding the address of the British Embassy in Paris in 1783. I have emailed the FCO, but I think any reply will come in far too late for my purposes. Anne (talk) 11:08, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

Tried the London Gazette without luck (though you can try yourself with other keywords) as it doesn’t seem to give more specific addresses than “Paris” or “Versailles”. But it does confirm that both Fitzherbert and Montagu were ambassadors in 1783, Fitzherbert was at least up to February and Montagu from at least September until replaced by the Duke of Dorset in December. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 17:19, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

In January 1783, Alleyne FitzHerbert, 1st Baron St Helens, seems to be writing from the Hotel Parc Royal rue des Marais: To Benjamin Franklin?, but it could be also the address from the place he visited. I'm not sure there existed an established Embassy building before the French Directoire or so anyway (consider protocolary matters.) Besides the Baron FitzHerbert are also David Hartley and George Montagu, 4th Duke of Manchester possibly involved in the negotiations 1783, and of course, John Frederick Sackville, I'll be searching for their residences. Regarding Rue des Marais(fr) following the 1850s major rebuilding of Paris there is left a portion of the street as the Rue Albert-Thomas(fr) but as a matter of style there is also in the neighbouring area Rue du Parc-Royal(fr) . Askedonty (talk) 10:41, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

Thank you, Askedonty. All I can say is that Aspinall-Oglander is emphatic that the Embassy was at rue des Petits-Champs in the time frame mentioned. I only wanted to confirm that he was right on this matter, but I'm afraid I don't have time to discuss wider issues - just need that address confirmed! Anne (talk) 11:16, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

I must admit the sentence "rue des Petit-Champs" sounds familiar to me, back from my school days I think, but I do not have any trace written of it that I know, unfortunately. --Askedonty (talk) 11:35, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

So this remains a lot in uncertainty but here is discussed the housing of ambassadors, as temporary assignments under the guidance of an intermediary introducteur, someone in charge of the Ambassadors; besides, "in 1779, there is still not a specific Hotel intended for the residence of the Ambassadors" (translated, from previous link). There, is mention of a "Rue-Neuve des Petits-Champs". An other reference is in Journal et Mémoires du Marquis d'Argenson. 2 déc 1755: "L'Hotel des ambassadeurs, rue des Petits-Champs, va devenir l'hôtel du ministre des finances, et le palais de Bourbon ve devenir celui des ambassadeur ordinaires et des ministres des affaires etrangères" (The Hotel des Ambassadeurs, rue des Petits-Champs, will become the hotel of the Minister of Finance, and the Palais de Bourbon will become that of ordinary ambassadors and ministers of foreign affairs). That change, intended for reasons of economy, may have not taken effects, but it's not comforting the idea of a British Embassy established in the modern sense however. --Askedonty (talk) 12:50, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

The "Rue-Neuve" and rue "des Petits-Champs" are in fact two distinct streets but in the vicinity of each other [2]. Now to illustrate the ambiguity of the term "Embassy", as a designation for the mission of an ambassador at a given occasion rather than a permanent residence or establishment (see Embassy), we have the Almanach royal for 1770 -- ?! in fact, 1780! first edition since 1699. A number of foreign ambassadors are designed in it, as "Resident foreign diplomats in Near of the King", thus, their address is a personal address of residence. Benjamin Franklin is mentioned as a resident in Passy. No British diplomat features therein, thus, it seems probable that in 1783 if their address was rue des Petits-Champs it was also that of the aforementioned Hôtel of the ambassadors. --Askedonty (talk) 14:59, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

Thank you, Askedonty. I don't need the address of the ambassador's Residence, rather the work building, known as the Chancery. I've just had a phone call from the Chief Butler at the Residence in Paris, in response to my email to the FCO, sent only hours earlier. Apparently he is a history buff! Anyway, he didn't happen to have an answer for me, but has referred my query back to the Historical Department at the FCO. If they don't know, then nobody (apart from Aspinall-Oglander) will! Anne (talk) 17:35, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

Don't know if you have time before your deadline, but Montagu (Duke of Manchester)'s papers and letters from this time are in a university library and can be requested. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 17:34, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

Thank you, but hopefully that long route has now become unnecessary, but worth knowing. Anne (talk) 17:38, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

Fingers crossed! Apparently also available in Emissary and entrepôts: Paris peacemaking in 1783 : an exhibition from the diplomatic papers of the Duke of Manchester, British Ambassador to France in 1783, FYI. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 17:41, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

Hotel d'Angleterre "Treaty of Paris" "british embassy" "44 rue jacob" fiveby(zero) 18:32, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

Well, I never did! There seem to be as many 'answers' as there are respondents! I can only hope to goodness that the FCO will have the final, definitive say on this matter. Anne (talk) 18:42, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

Sorry! can't find a good source here, but it is all over Paris travel guides. You'd think we would see the story of Franklin refusing to enter because it was "British soil" somewhere. fiveby(zero) 18:50, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

It is certainly intriguing. After long research, over the past 20 years, this is by no means the first time I have encountered variable answers to a simple question. I just hope the FCO will come up with something definitive and this I must now wait for, and hope they don't take too long about it. Anne (talk) 18:59, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

It was the Hotel d'York, The Gentleman's Guide in His Tour, the two others "d'Angleterre" don't count (information taken from fr:Rue Jacob). Firmin Didot, anecdotically, is worth another name associated with the Hotel d'York. --Askedonty (talk) 19:20, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

Yes, the travel guides and newspapers are giving us that Franklin refused to step on "British soil" at Hotel d'Angleterre, so the treaty was signed at Hotel d'York. 56 rue Jacob. Unfortunately Electronic Enlightenment is unavailable through WP:Library right now, but someone with university access might give it a shot. fiveby(zero)

Thank you to all who have contributed - much appreciated. Whether we have gone off course regarding where was the British Embassy, I am not sure, but the signing of the Peace Treaty (and Franklin's refusal to tread on British soil) was not behind my request. I have too much on my plate rght now to continue with responses, so shall hope to hear from the Foreign Office as soon as possible. If they have anything worth reporting I will post here. Thanks again, Anne (talk) 23:01, 5 January 2023 (UTC)