Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2024 September 2

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September 2

Book loss in the Middle Ages and early modern times?

Is there actually any serious literature or documents on the loss of books that occurred from the Middle Ages to the early modern period? 2A02:8071:60A0:92E0:1D70:BDF0:96DF:1D8D (talk) 10:21, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

Have you seen the fabulous article de:Bücherverluste in der Spätantike? (The English Loss of books in late antiquity isn't quite as extensive). That may not be the time period you seem to be asking about, but maybe it can provide some leads. --Wrongfilter (talk) 10:35, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

We also have a general article or list, Lost literary work... -- AnonMoos (talk) 10:42, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

The Cambridge History of Libraries in Britain and Ireland highlights the loss of libraries during the English Reformation and the English Civil War. I suspect it would be different for each individual country, but the religious turmoil of the 15th and 16th centuries might be a common theme. Alansplodge (talk) 14:38, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

Historical real estate or land prices: Tel Aviv, Singapore, Dubai

Are there sources for the long-term real estate (or raw land) prices across the world? I'm especially interested in "new" settlements such as Tel Aviv, Singapore, and Dubai from the 1950s or 1960s to Dubai. I'd like to compare them to neighboring cities (Cairo, Beirut, Damascus, Kuala Lumpur, Jakarta, Riyadh, Jeddah, Kuwait City, etc.). I can't find anything... a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 11:29, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

Double-check your assumptions. According to our articles on Singapore and Kuala Lumpur, Singapore is about 550 years older than KL. DOR (ex-HK) (talk) 19:09, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

Technically true, but the real discrepancy is not that great. Per the articles:

"Prior to Raffles' arrival (in 1819), there were only about a thousand people living on the island (of Singapore]", and

"Kuala Lumpur is considered by some to have been founded by the Malay Chief of Klang, Raja Abdullah, who sent Chinese miners into the region to open tin mines in 1857, although it is unclear who the first settlers were since there were likely settlements at the Gombak-Klang river confluence prior to that in the 1820s."

[Ex-Hong Kong and Singapore resident.] {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.1.209.45 (talk) 23:58, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

@DOR (HK): yes but that's not the point. I'd like to see the price increase since the "boom"/"birth"/"independence" of these cities. So for instance, 1948 for TLV, 1965 for SG, 1971 for DXB and 1980 for Shenzhen (even though it has "this area has seen human activity from more than 6,700 years ago, with Shenzhen's historic counties first established 1,700 years ago"). a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 07:21, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

Tel Aviv became a substantial urban settlement starting in the mid-1930s, but I really would not expect much correlation between property values there and in Jerusalem (which has an entirely different geographic location and cultural history), much less cities in hostile foreign countries (as Egypt was before the late 1970s, and Lebanon and Syria still are). Maybe there could be a correlation between property values in Tel Aviv and Haifa... AnonMoos (talk) 23:27, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

I'm interested in this lack of correlation: you bought a piece of land in the mid-1930 (or 1940s) in TLV, Cairo, Beirut, Damascus, Alexandria, Gaziantep, Limassol, Sharm El-Sheikh, etc.: what are they all worth today? a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 07:23, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

While there may well be pre-WWII sales prices for some real estate in those places, there is almost certainly nothing comparable to the city-wide averages (or similar) we have today. Apples and mangoes. DOR (ex-HK) (talk) 16:24, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

Sources must exist, presumably there would have been adverts in newspapers and magazines. Presumably people had to disclose value of properties for taxation reasons, at least in some of these cases. --Soman (talk) 22:21, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

Apparently the British military was willing to sell a property at the Sharjah sailing club for 100 pounds in 1972 - https://www.agda.ae/en/catalogue/tna/fco/8/1814/n/15 . Presumably the property value has increased since. --Soman (talk) 23:03, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

One rather suspects that transaction was not at arm's length, still less at market value. DuncanHill (talk) 00:48, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

Yes I don't hope to find an index but some anecdotal evidence such as ads in newspapers or mentions later in newspapers and books ("My dad bought this land in 1965 for 150 dollars"). Thanks @Soman, that's a great example. a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 08:25, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

""Land for any purpose is sold by the square foot, and a residential or suburban villa in Dubai may cost as much as $15 per square foot - or $600,000 per acre. A suburban villa rents for $15,000-$20,000 or more per year, with a 2-3 year payment in advance. Because of these land costs, it is easy to understand why private investors lean heavily toward high-rise apartments of some 13 or 14 stories." ([1]) Now this quote is from a 1977 publication, so post oil boom of the 1970s. --Soman (talk) 11:02, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

From 1963: "The market in Dubai was fairly brisk in July and August considering the time of year, and, as usual, was very busy in September. Although reexports to Iran were not good more goods were going to Pakistan and India again. But there was a hint of overstocking and many merchants appeared to realise for the first time how much of Dubai's present prosperity depends on the uncertain prospect of oil. The cost of land remained high (23/- to 30/- a square foot for land in the business area 6/- to 9/- in the residential areas), fewer sales were made." [2] --Soman (talk) 11:13, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

Dubai, 1961 - "His Excellency the Ruler has also instructed his Engineering Consultants to prepare plans for a bridge across the creek, which is expected to cost $190,000; and to continue design studies for the reclamation of a narrow strip of land along the Daira water front, on which shops and a road would be built; the road should help to relieve the present traffic congestion considerably. The asking price for land in this area is sometimes as high as £4-10 sh a square foot, and the sale of the shops might well pay for the reclamation." ([3]) --Soman (talk) 11:18, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

Thanks a lot @Soman! "23/-" means 23 shillings while "£4-10 sh" means "4 to 10 shillings" or 4 pounds and 10 shillings? a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 14:59, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

Yes, "/-" is an alternative abbreviation to s, which is the "shillings" in a price, originally, for example, 4l 10s 6d (four pounds, ten shillings and sixpence, 4.525 pounds in decimal money. The presence of the pound sign in the second quote indicates "4l 10s" (4.50 pounds in decimal money). 2A02:C7B:232:500:3CB6:5B8B:EF2E:8517 (talk) 17:27, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, in these examples, land was way more expensive in 1961 (£4.5/sq ft) than in 1963 (~£1/sq ft)? a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 07:16, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

The 1961 factoid relates to the Deira seafront, which would have been a top location. And it says "up to 4-10 sh" so presumably there were some cheaper lots as well. The 1963 estimates would have been the more normal prices perhaps. --Soman (talk) 11:06, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

OK thanks! a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 12:51, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Are we quite sure that the / in the 1963 item doesn't mean Rupee? Dubai used the Gulf rupee at the time. DuncanHill (talk) 18:26, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Did the Gulf rupee use "/-"? a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 18:31, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

It was only separated from the Indian rupee a few years before, so I would suspect yes, but that said I've had the time now to read the rest of the 1963 source, which predominantly gives values in Sterling, and uses Rps for Rupees, so I think shillings is right here. DuncanHill (talk) 22:54, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Problem solved then, thanks! a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 07:41, 6 September 2024 (UTC)