Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2024 September 24

Welcome to the Wikipedia Humanities Reference Desk Archives
The page you are currently viewing is a transcluded archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the current reference desk pages.

September 24

Liliuokalani to Victoria

There is a letter from Liliuokalani to Queen Victoria dated to January 31, 1893. I’ve found the return letter from Victoria but not the one sent by Liliuokalani. The citation in this source: Great Britain and the Hawaiian Revolution and Republic, 1893-1898, cites it to “Enclosure in Wodehouse, despatch to Rosebery, 1 Feb. 1893, FO 534/59” and quotes one line, “to avoid violence and bloodshed, and damage to my subjects”. This one gives another snippet from the letter: “friendly intercession and mediation“. Can someone help me find this letter in its entirety? KAVEBEAR (talk) 03:09, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

Here's the National Archives catalogue entry FO 534/59. The letter might also be pp. 41-2 of FO 58/270. fiveby(zero) 03:37, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

Anyone with access to the source and can scan it? I submitted a Wikipedia:WikiProject Resource Exchange/Resource Request#Letter to Victoria from Liliuokalani in case anyone there can get the resource as well. KAVEBEAR (talk) 04:11, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

Tate, Merze (1962). "Great Britain and the Sovereignty of Hawaii". Pacific Historical Review. 31 (4). cites as FO 58/279 "Designs of the United States on Hawaii. Volume 2" which may be more complete and include foreign office notes for the reply (note Tate says "...Victoria opened the Queen of Hawaii's letter and returned it to the foreign office without comment. Since an acknowledgement and a reply of some sort to be sent, the undersecretaries in that office decided on one "with padding" to "the effect that the Queen had received the letter had referred it to her advisor.") fiveby(zero) 04:21, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

Gordian coin with two scripts

https://postimg.cc/9DPF5fd5 This coin reads clearly enough IMP GORDIANUS PIUS, then immediately goes into another script that looks kind of Semitic, but I can't make sense out of it. Any ideas? If you can't read that, I can upload the short video clip where it's more legible--but where? The site where I uplaoded the image doesn't take videos. Temerarius (talk) 23:09, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

I found numerous examples of Gordian III coins inscribed with IMP GORDIANVS PIVS FEL AVG and the letters on this one, assuming it is but one script, are perhaps too worn to make out properly. Modocc (talk) 00:42, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

A nice one. --Modocc (talk) 00:52, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

God, how strange! It does say FEL AUG. But it's copied so poorly it's like just the last bits were done by an illiterate. It's a different die from that gold one. The engraver seems to be splitting the difference at confusion over whether the bit under the P is headband, radial, or knot.

Temerarius (talk) 01:13, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Its quite possible that it was indeed done by an illiterate. As the Roman Empire declined, new coins minted in outlying portions of it under semi- or entirely autonomous local rulers naturally tried to copy older coins, but the engravers were sometimes not literate and had little idea of the 'correct' (letter) forms within the designs they were copying, and sometimes didn't fully understand what the 'pictures' represented (or lacked the skill to reproduce them well) so in time copies of copies of copies could degenerate into almost abstract and unrecognisable forms. This kind of 'devolution' can be seen both post-Roman coins and also coins from other cultures in Europe.

We ought to have something describing this in an article, but I haven't been able to find one. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.1.171.3 (talk) 17:56, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

From Offa of Mercia#Coinage: There are also surviving gold coins from Offa's reign. One is a copy of an Abbasid dinar struck in 774 by Caliph Al-Mansur,[117] with "Offa Rex" centred on the reverse. It is clear that the moneyer had no understanding of Arabic as the Arabic text contains many errors. Also local copies of Spanish dollars or thalers are probably done by people who did not understand the originals. --Error (talk) 23:42, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Here's a blog post showing evolution from a Roman stater to some sort of cubist portrait with a horse with three tails on the reverse.  Card Zero  (talk) 06:06, 26 September 2024 (UTC)