Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2007 February 8

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February 8

Thesaurus

Are there equivalents to Roget's Thesaurus in other languages? I am not asking about synonym dictionaries, which are often described as thesauri but are not. Roget is possibly unique in that it groups words not only by precise meaning but by idea. Thus, the entry for 'love' consists not merely of a list of synonyms for the word, but contains many words and phrases that are related to the concept of love. I would like to know if anyone has attempted to produce a similar work, which effectively classifies the English language, for another language. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 23:53, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

For German, you might be right, I don't know anything comparable to Roget's excellent Thesaurus. The Duden, Volume 8, Sinn- und sachverwandte Wörter (or Synonymwörterbuch nowadays, I think) is exactly what I would have suggested, but you already excluded it in your question. There's also the online project OpenThesaurus you might be interested in. ---Sluzzelin 00:05, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Basic English word list

Do you know of anywhere where I could find the Basic English word list translated into some other language? --Lazar Taxon 03:06, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

So tantalizing! Italian Wikipedia provides a link to such a thing on Wiktionary, but the thing doesn't exist. --Lazar Taxon 03:10, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure how that would work out, since many of the 850 words have multiple meanings, especially in idiomatic combinations of words (e.g. "give up", "take on", etc.). So 850 English words would probably end up translating to far more in another language, if the job was done right. AnonMoos 15:18, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Check out Swadesh list. Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 02:02, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Which is not really the same as the Basic English wordlist, however... AnonMoos 10:15, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Latin translation

I know this forum is a bit snooty on Latin translations, but I wondered if I could request "the devil wears the best clothes" in Latin please. Many thanks.

Diabolus vestem optimam gerit, I think. --Ptcamn 09:45, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Sectioning While Double Spacing

Hi. I'm writing a report that must be double spaced. It's a little over three pages, and I'm using paragraph headings. I understand it's best to set the headings flush left so they stand out more. So to compensate for this, I left two blank lines above the headings instead of one:

  mollit anim id est laborum.
 
 
  :Lorem. Ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipisicing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt
 
  ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco 
 
  laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat.
 
       Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat
 
  nulla pariatur. Excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia
 
  deserunt mollit anim id est laborum.

Are there better ways of doing this? I've had a hard time finding information on this because most writing is single spaced.—Beautiful Scars 08:53, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't differentiate between single and double-spacing when laying out reports, I usually just type it as normal then double space it using the format button (in Word: edit-select all, then format-paragraph-line spacing-double). In my experience, the specifics of the layout don't matter as long as you're consistent (is the report for an assignment?), but I always use the following (and it's always been fine):

Section 1 LOREM

Ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipisicing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna

aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo

consequat.

Section 1.1 Duis autre

Irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur. Excepteur sint

occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui official deserunt mollit anim id est laborum.

Section 2 IPSUM

Dolor sit amet, consectetur adipisicing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna

aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo

consequat.

etc etc. I prefer justified paragraphs, though, and hate indenting. Good luck! Natgoo 12:31, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for your help! Yes, it's for an assignment. That does make sense since I've never seen extra spacing before a paragraph heading. Have a good one!—Beautiful Scars 07:07, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

I'd advise against this, only because my English teacher this year is an MLA nazi. Since you're [were] writing a report for school, not the Fashion Institute, they won't mark you off for indistinguishable headlines, since it was they who prescribed the horrendously ugly double-space meme in the first place. z ε n  07:49, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

hebrew ? messages above my doors

hello my name is Pamela Davies i live in Wales |uk and have lived in my home for about 15 yrs i think my home was built around 1911 and on every door in my home as a hebrew message so ive been told as ur are a org. i would like to ask u if u can give me any information on these messages i can attach my message please can i have a email address and i can forward on the message my email is <removed> and i would really like to know more about these messages thanks you

It would help us greatly if you posted the text of the messages. You can do so right here, there's no need to email. Natgoo 12:46, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Are they mezuzot, perhaps? --Lph 17:10, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

I asked for her to e-mail the image to me. There's no purpose posting it, though, because it's definitely a mezuzah scroll; the format is exactly the same as Image:MezuzahText.jpg.--Pharos 20:58, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Note that if you don't want to keep the mezuzot, it would be respectful to contact your local synagogue to learn what to do with them. Because the scrolls in the mezuzot have the name of God written on them, Jews believe they should not be disposed of like garbage. -- Mwalcoff 02:13, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

the difference between 'named for and 'named after'

hi, being a school child of the 70's(scottish education), i was never taught 'oldfashion' grammar rules, spelling etc i think we were supposed to learn it thru imaginative play or educational osmosis or sumfing. Anyway for years i have come across examples of both of the above, 'named after' and 'named for' and i have not been able to figure out the 'rules' of usage - i once thought it had to do with the difference between an object and a person, but they do not seem to follow this, i would be very grateful if someone could explain their usage ta

Basically 'named for' is American English and 'named after' is British English. Simple really :-) --Richardrj ^{talk email} 12:13, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

To me they sound equally natural. (I'm from the USA.) --Lph 13:44, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

The difference is in the meanings of the words themselves. Named after implies the naming is done in honour of someone (or perhaps something). Named for implies, well, being named for something or someone. That is my interpretation. − Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 14:18, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Not sure what you mean by "being named for something or someone". As I see it, the British would say "John Lennon Airport is named after the late Beatle", whereas an American would be more likely to say "John F Kennedy Airport is named for the former President." --Richardrj ^{talk email} 14:27, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

I think an American is actually more likely to say that JFK Airport is "named after" the late president. In American English, I think that "named after" has some connotation of "posthumously", whereas something is more likely be "named for" living people or inanimate entities. But this is just a tendency, and I think that either form is allowable in either context in American English. Marco polo 15:09, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm American and I don't think I would ever say something was "named for" someone. I'd only use "named after", regardless of the circumstances (posthumous vs. living, etc.). —Angr 16:31, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

French text about Teochew

From the section of Teochew (dialecte):

Le programme de romanisation du teochew (潮州话拼音方案), aussi appelé Peng'im (拼音), créé en septembre 1960 par le Département de l'Éducation de la province de Guangdong, est le système de romanisation dédié au teochew. Le standard suivi pour son élaboration fut la prononciation de la préfecture de Shantou (汕頭/汕头 suan1tao5). Ce système transcrit les sons de la langue par l'alphabet latin et les tons par des chiffres mis en exposant.

What does it mean? Especially the second and last sentences? --Fitzwilliam 13:58, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

The Teochew Romanization Programme (also known as Peng'im) was created in September 1960 by the Education Department of the province of Guangdong as a Romanization scheme specifically for the Teochew language. It is based on the pronunciation used in the prefecture of Shantou. This scheme transcribes the sounds of Teochew using the Latin alphabet and the tones using superscipt numbers.

--Diderot 14:24, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks very much. I'm going to add this to English and Chinese versions.--Fitzwilliam 16:00, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Libri -vs- Liber

What's the difference in these Latin words? Is "liber" ONE(1) book, where "libri" is a set of books (i.e. encyclopedia)? --Doug ^talk 15:12, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Liber is the nominative singular form, while Libri is the genitive singular form and the nominative plural form. AnonMoos 15:21, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

P.S. See Latin declension. AnonMoos 15:23, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Jueva doce

What does 'jueva doce' mean? It was mentioned in a movie for a class on gender studies. The topic we were covering at that time ws about hermaphrodites. I don't even know what language 'jueva doce' is. -- The preceding unsigned query was added by an unknown user

Did you see it written down, or is this a reconstruction based upon how it sounded? It might be useful if you could tell us a little more about how it seemed to be pronunced, and any suspicions you might have on where it may come from - e.g. if the words sounded Spanish, French, generically Southern European or Latin. --Neo 16:39, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

See the article on Guevedoche, a Dominican word for people with 5-alpha-reductase deficiency. Guevedoche is slang for huevos a los doce, meaning balls at twelve. High incidence of 5-alpha-reductase deficiency can also be found among the Sambia, a Papuan tribe, and members suffering from this condition are called kwolu-aatmwol (female thing transforming into male thing). These are indeed classic examples for anthropological studies of sexual dichotomy and third gender---Sluzzelin 04:59, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Define Positive Harm

I have heard references to "positive harm" on public radio in recent weeks. A brief web search has not found a definition of "positive harm", but has shown it used in many documents online. Is there a definition available? 208.114.161.136 16:33, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

In what context is this term used? Maybe this is analogous to "Any publicity is good publicity". − Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 17:04, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Interesting question. I've heard it a lot. The phrase seems to occur in two Wikipedia articles here and here, both times in quotations. It seems to be used to indicate that something that is intended to do good is not only ineffective, but causes definite harm (not just the accidental harm that might normally be expected) as an unintended side-effect.--Shantavira 18:50, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

These uses of the term suggest it is very similar to saying "actual harm" or "definite harm". − Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 18:56, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Imperfect tense in German?

What is the German equivalent of the imperfect tense? Our article says that this tense exists only in Romance languages such as French, Spanish and Italian. When I learned French at school, I was taught that there were three uses for the imperfect: interrupted, continuous and habitual (although I never really grasped the distinction between the last two). An example would be je mangeais mon déjeuner quand Philippe est entré (interrupted). So, how would that sentence be rendered in German? And what about the other uses, continuous and habitual?

My German verb tables do include entries for the imperfect tense, e.g. ich aß, but I think that is actually the preterite or past historic tense rather than the imperfect tense as described above. Our article on the preterite does say that it is sometimes incorrectly called the imperfect. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 22:21, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

When I learnt basic grammar in Sweden in the 80's, we used the term "imperfect", I heard later that it was incorrect, though. 惑乱 分からん 23:22, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

The reason these aren't usually distinguished in germanic languages is because there really isn't any difference. Romance languages have (a lot!) more tenses than germanic ones. The past tenses (imperfect/preteritum, perfect and plusperfect tenses) are used instead of the non-existent ones, depending on the situation. The preterite and the imperfect would be the most usual pair, and at least in Swedish and German the commonly used term is in fact "Imperfekt" even though the theoretically correct one would be preterite - but as there isn't any "true" imperfect no one really cares. TERdON 23:37, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks very much for these replies. So, would someone be kind enough to translate my example sentence, "I was eating my lunch when Philip came in", into German? Many thanks. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 08:58, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

This is really at the limits of my knowledge of German, but rather than leave your question unanswered, I will take a stab and hope that someone corrects me if I'm wrong. As I understand it, apart from auxiliary verbs, the preterite is used mainly in written German. In speech, apart from auxiliary verbs, the preterite is rarely heard except perhaps among educated northern Germans. So, I think that in spoken or informal German, you would word this "Ich hab' mein Mittagessen gegessen, während Philip reingekommen ist." In more formal and written German, it would be "Ich aß mein Mittagessen, als Philip hereinkam." Marco polo 17:30, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Many thanks for that. One question: why do you write Ich hab'? Why not just leave it at Ich habe? --Richardrj ^{talk email} 19:31, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Is German really this poor at expressing temporal relationship? We need a native speaker here (or let's say an American linguist living in Germany :). I would have guessed at something like "Ich war beim Mittagessen, als Philip reingekommen ist." Stefán 19:52, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, where are the RD kings of German, Sluzzelin and Angr, when you need them :-) --Richardrj ^{talk email} 21:22, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

You called for a native speaker, here I am ;) Your translation avoids the problem elegantly, as in formal language, there is no direct translation for the progressive aspect of "I was eating". But colloquially you could say "Ich war am essen". I'm from the Cologne area, but I believe this "am"+infinitive construct is used in many parts of the Rhineland and can be understood by most Germans. I recently even noticed it in a German dub of a US TV series, although I can't remember what it was. --Dapeteばか 14:01, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

I'd use a particle like gerade to convey the imperfective meaning of "I was eating". Something like "Ich war gerade beim Mittagessen, als Philipp reingekommen ist" or "Ich hab gerade zum Mittag gegessen, als..." —Angr 09:42, 12 February 2007 (UTC)