Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2008 October 31

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October 31

using commas

When should we use commas?

See Comma (punctuation). -- Wavelength (talk) 00:45, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes, that's good advice. It's a big question, Anonymous! I'd normally refer a question about punctuation to WP:MOS first of all, but there isn't much about commas there. They're so common, and so hard to get right! Even accomplished writers and editors disagree on the details. Glance at the section called Serial commas, then follow the links from there. If after that you need more specific guidance (with examples, perhaps), come back here.

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 00:49, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Check this for an example of when you should use commas... Sandman30s (talk) 08:16, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

A good book on English grammar and usage is a worthwhile investment. I'm partial to Strunk and White's The Elements of Style myself (it's short), but others seem to prefer Fowler's A Dictionary of Modern English Usage. There may be others that those on the Ref. Desk prefer. All will deal with the proper usage of the comma, and at least one should be for sale at your local bookseller. --128.104.112.72 (talk) 16:10, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

The Chicago Manual of Style is also highly regarded. (I still like Fowler's presentation of a philosophy of usage, though it's not easy to use as a reference.) —Tamfang (talk) 07:53, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

Laying or lying

Mental block help needed here – the British Prime Minister Gordon Brown had an eye injury resulting in blindness in one eye in spite of measure including "lying in a darkened room" blah blah. Is it correct or does a person lay in a ... ? Thanks, Julia Rossi (talk) 04:49, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

It depends on whether you want prescriptive or descriptive, Julia. The rules say "lying", but many, many people say "laying". Technically, "to lay" is a transitive verb, e.g. to lay a carpet, or lay some concrete. When referring to oneself becoming prostrate in a bed etc, it's lying (down). And that's no lie.  :) -- JackofOz (talk) 05:29, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

See List of English irregular verbs. -- Wavelength (talk) 05:54, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks guys, for helping me to "lie straight in bed"; evidence I'm not the only one having difficulties.[1] :) Julia Rossi (talk) 07:19, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Can someone identify this poem?

The Assyrian came down like a wolf on the fold
And his cohorts were gleaming in silver and gold
For the sheen of his spear was as blue as the sea
Where the moon shines so brightly on deep Galilee

This is a poem I studied over 40 years ago and I have forgotten the name of it. I would like to reread it in its entirety now that I am an adult.

Thanks for any help... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.195.109.135 (talk) 11:41, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

The Destruction of Sennacherib by Byron. Angus McLellan (Talk) 11:45, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Meaning of Máj

Does Máj mean the month of May or something in Czech? If it isn't then what does the title of the epic poem by Mácha mean? Exactly how is it pronounced? (It's not like English for sure, but I can't imagine it otherwise.) By the way, I cannot read IPA. 203.188.92.70 (talk) 13:54, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

The word "máj" indeed means May, but it is archaic, May is normally called "květen" in contemporary Czech. It is pronounced [maːj], which is similar to English "my", but the vowel is longer. — Emil J. 14:46, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

So did the Czechs start using Latin names of months, like Slovaks still do, at some point in history and then they switched back to original Slavic names? — Kpalion^(talk) 21:20, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

I didn't know Czechs didn't use Latin month names. A tidbit of info regarding Southern Slavs and month names. Slovenes use the Latin names (Maj applies with us :), so do Serbs, and until recently so did the Croats. In an attempt to differentiate Croatian from Serbian (to break with the old Yugoslavian way of forcefully merging the two into Serbo-Croatian), Croatians reinstated their archaic month names, but they didn't stick with the common man, so nowadays Croats just use numbers (for instance, May would simply be 5th month in Croatian). TomorrowTime (talk) 22:06, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

So Croatian months are like Chinese months. (In fact, in Chinese, Monday is "week one" (or something like that, not sure about "week", there's got to be a better word), Tuesday "week two", and so on. Sunday is "day" or some synonym of "sky".) Sorry that's deviating from the topic. Vltava 68 (talk contribs) 09:51, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

Never mind – all fresh and new to me. Julia Rossi (talk) 12:06, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

Czechs used native Slavic names for months, except for May, whose original name was lost, and it was called by the Latin-derived "máj". In the beginning of 19th century, language purists introduced the neologism "květen" instead (it was modeled after Polish "kwiecień", which however means April). — Emil J. 13:21, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

In the 18th century, Quakers named the months and days of the week with numbers, because they objected to references to pagan gods and goddesses [2] AnonMoos (talk) 12:20, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

To me, the whole topic of Slavic month names is fascinating. Generally, modern Slavic languages can be divided into those that use Latin-derived names only (e.g. Russian, Slovak), those that retain old Slavic names (e.g. Czech, Ukrainian), and those that mix Latin and Slavic names (e.g. Polish). The Slavic names are all derived from natural phenomena or labors of the month, a little like French Revolutionary month names. This is what it looks like in Czech:

Month in English	Month in Czech	Meaning of the root word		Month in English	Month in Czech	Meaning of the root word
January	leden	ice		July	červenec	worm (referring to the Polish cochineal)
February	únor	to float (referring to ice floe)		August	srpen	sickle
March	březen	birch		September	září	rut
April	duben	oak		October	říjen	rut
May	květen	flowers		November	listopad	falling leaves
June	červen	worm (referring to the Polish cochineal)		December	prosinec	to shine through (referring to the sun shining through the clouds)

To those who speak at least some French, I recommend this website with a comparative table of month names and their meanings in all Slavic languages. — Kpalion^(talk) 13:26, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

My favorite in descriptive month names is the "translation" of the French Republican Calendar into English: Vendémiaire, Brumaire Frimaire == "Wheezy, Sneezy, and Freezy"; Nivôse, Pluviôse, Ventôse == "Slippy, Drippy and Nippy"; Germinal, Floréal, Prairial == "Showery, Flowery and Bowery"; and Messidor, Thermidor, Fructidor == "Wheaty, Heaty and Sweety"... AnonMoos (talk)

The last three are also known as "Hoppy, Croppy and Poppy". -- JackofOz (talk) 22:45, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

The Slovaks use Latin month names, probably to differentiate themselves from the Czechs just like the Croats. I think the word "Máj" was popular during the Communist era in Czechoslovakia; for example, the downtown Tesco store used to be a store called Máj. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 03:42, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

I just found out there's a whole series of (unsourced) articles about Slavic month names: Bulgarian months, Croatian months, Czech months, Macedonian month names, Polish months and Ukrainian months. I wonder if it would be a good idea to merge them all into one Slavic month names article with a comparative table like the one I linked to above. The only possible problem would be to find reliable sources for all the etymology, especially since the origin of some month names is uncertain or disputed. — Kpalion^(talk) 10:56, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

In modern Czech, "máj" appears as (1) a poetic or archaic expression for May, or (2) in the phrase "První máj" = May Day. The latter was a major holiday in Communist era, hence other stuff tended to be named after it (including the store you mention). — Emil J. 13:21, 3 November 2008 (UTC)