Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2009 April 8

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April 8

'Faux' For French "False", "True" English For French

faux pas is French for "false step". What is "true" (English) in French? What is "true step" in French?68.148.145.190 (talk) 00:38, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Vrai is true, vrai pas, I guess, would be "true step". Wrad (talk) 00:49, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Of course, even in French "faux pas" is idiomatic, so it's literal opposite "vrai pas" may not make much sense. People would probably understand it, but it would seem a strange usage, much like in English people using terms like "chalant" as the opposite of "nonchalant" or something like that... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 03:08, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

"Whelmed" vs. "overwhelmed" :) Wrad (talk) 03:55, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Also, adjectives normally follow nouns in French, so pas vrai might be better. (Faux pas is an exception to that, possibly because it's an idiom.) Unfortunately, however, pas vrai would probably be interpreted as "not true" rather than "true step". —Angr 06:38, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

If I remember from my year of college French, adjectives normally precede nouns when they're words that have to do with beauty, goodness, size and a fourth property that I don't remember. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 06:42, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Age. Wrad (talk) 17:58, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Merci. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 05:49, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

One more thing: I don't think "faux" means "false" in the sense of "not complying with truth/reality" here, but in the sense of "not complying with the norm". French Wiktionary has "des actes irréguliers, incorrects, insuffisants, manquant à leur destination" for this usage. I would suggest something like "un pas juste", "un pas régulier", "un pas correct". I wanted to suggest "un bon pas", but that usually means "a good pace" (as in fast). Where are Noetica and his fat reference works? ---Sluzzelin talk 07:28, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

On wikibreak, unfortunately. —Angr 10:44, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

I seem to remember reading somewhere (and unfortunately I can't remember where) that the English phrase "faux pas" is not actually used in French to mean what in English would be called a faux pas - the French would be "une bévue" or "une gaffe". Interestingly the online Larousse does offer an English->French translation of "faux pas"; "the phrase "faux pas" is not offered as a translation. Similarly I seem to remember the English phrase al fresco, taken to be a translation from Italian as "in [the] cool", and meaning "outside" (as in "dining al fresco) means "in prison" (as in "in the cooler") in Italian. Can anyone confirm or deny this vague memory of mine? Tonywalton ^Talk 00:14, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

How does Timon Screech pronounce his name?

As in TIE-mun of Athens or as in Tuh-MOAN and Pumba? LANTZY^TALK 07:27, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Well, Japanese Wikipedia calls him Taimon Sukurīchi, suggesting the first. But you could e-mail him and ask. —Angr 10:49, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Is it "winner" or "winners" if a sports team has won a competition?

Which of the following sentences is correct:

"The sixth-placed team will qualify for the UEFA Europa League if League Cup winners Manchester United or the FA Cup winner finish fifth or higher"

or

"The sixth-placed team will qualify for the UEFA Europa League if League Cup winners Manchester United or the FA Cup winners finish fifth or higher"?

This question might have been asked before, but since there is currently some back-and-forth editing on the issue at Premier League 2008–09 between two users, I thought it is better to ask someone who actually knows what is correct and what is not. --Soccer-holic^{I hear voices in my head...} 09:33, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

I would go with winners. Teams are often referred to in the plural ("Manchester United are in second place...") Plus, the singular would look funny since you've already used "winners" to refer to Man U. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 11:19, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

See British_and_American_English_differences#Formal_and_notional_agreement. --Sean 12:20, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Thanks a lot! --Soccer-holic^{I hear voices in my head...} 12:40, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

You're welcome. And thank you for your dedicated work on updating Austrian Football Bundesliga 2008–09, which I check every week. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 12:46, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Hm. I would have said the sixth-place team. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 01:31, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

I think it can be either. If it's conceived as "the team that was in 6th place", then it's "the sixth place team" or "the sixth-place team"; but if it's thought of "the 6th team that won a place", then it'd be "the sixth-placed team" (or, I suppose, "the sixth placed team"). -- JackofOz (talk) 04:09, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Nuh-uh. "Sixth-placed" is fine in the first sense, meaning "the team placed sixth". --Richardrj ^{talk email} 08:11, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm skeptical. Sixth-placed sounds much like sixth-seeded -- the team that was assigned some sixth position, and not necessarily in sequence...? --DaHorsesMouth (talk) 23:32, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Sounds fine to me - the team was assigned sixth place by virtue of its results. Tonywalton ^Talk 00:17, 12 April 2009 (UTC)