Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2009 June 14

Language desk
< June 13	<< May | June | Jul >>	June 15 >

Welcome to the Wikipedia Language Reference Desk Archives
The page you are currently viewing is an archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the current reference desk pages.

June 14

Etymology of the word Islam

Hi does anyone have proper reference on the etymology of the word Islam? The word Islam is a homograph having multiple meanings such as Peace, Submission, Serenity etc.. But I am not able to find any scholarly reference on this. Can someone help me with this. NëŧΜǒńğer^{Peace Talks} 13:18, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

How about the Encyclopedia of Islam? Unfortunately you need to be able to login to www.brillonline.nl to read it. Hopefully your local library will have it...if you live near a university library, I'm sure it will be there. Adam Bishop (talk) 15:56, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Islam إسلام is derived from the same abstract triconsonantal root as the Arabic word for "peace" (salam سلام), but Islam simply does not mean "peace" in any ordinary or direct way (other than by means of remote etymological connections -- and if we count those, then the English word nice would actually mean "ignorant", etc. etc.).

Within the system of consonantal roots, Arabic morphology (like that of other Semitic languages) also has the concept of verb stems (see Arabic_grammar#Stem_formation). It turns out that if you look at Arabic dictionaries, then Stem I, Stem III, and Stem VI derivatives of the root S-L-M س ل م have meanings such as "to be whole", "to be peaceful", "to make one's peace with" etc., while the Stem II, Stem IV, Stem V, Stem VIII, and Stem X derivatives of the root S-L-M س ل م have meanings such as "to hand over, turn over, deliver, surrender, give up, betray, submit" or "to obtain, receive". Islam is a morphological Stem IV derivative, and the meanings of Stem IV derivatives of this root have no particular connection with the concept of "peace". When the word Islam was chosen to name a religion, this was done with reference to its meaning "submission" (i.e. submission to God), as far as can be ascertained. AnonMoos (talk) 17:34, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Scandinavian names

I was searching for the English/British translation of some Scandinavian given names:
Åke/Aage/Åge, Birger, Björn/Bjørn, Burkhard, Eggert, Einar, Eskil/Eskild, Finn, Fridtjof, Frodi, Gunnar/Gunner, Håkan/Haakon, Hartvig, Helge, Ingolf, Ingemar, Kjell, Leif, Östen/Östen, Sigvard, Sven/Svein/Svend, Torvald, Ulf, Ove. I would appreciate historical-obsolete forms too.
For example, the English equivalent of Erik would be Eric. Or Dustin for Torsten/Torstein, Canute for Knud/Knut. Thank you. --151.51.19.115 (talk) 17:14, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Most of those you have quoted are not known in English except in one of their original forms. Though it would not surprise me to find a reference book somewhere that solemnly listed 'English' equivalents to them, but it would be a work of fiction. It had never occurred to me that 'Dustin' was anything to do with 'Torstein'. --ColinFine (talk) 17:27, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

By translation, do you mean "accepted Anglicization" or "corresponding form derived from the same etymological root" or "hypothetical form reconstructed as derived from the same etymological root"? The first two are only likely to give fragmentary results. The third method was practiced quite a bit by Tolkien in coming up with names for his books, but you would need to have a lot knowledge in various areas of linguistics and history to come up with plausible results... AnonMoos (talk) 17:48, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Definitely the first two options! :-) --151.51.19.115 (talk) 17:51, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Might I recommend Wiktionary? Check the Scandinavian name's page, for each name, but if it doesn't list the English counterpart try Special:WhatLinksHere to see whether any English-language names' entries list the Scandinavian name in their translation sections.—msh210℠ 23:05, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Wiktionary has this version of Canute. He probably works at French Connection (clothing). -- JackofOz (talk) 23:15, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Why would he work at fcuk.174.3.103.39 (talk) 03:25, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

I'm extremely loath to explain jokes, so all I'll say is anagram. -- JackofOz (talk) 13:33, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

I used to work with a Lewis man called Uisdean, which is the Scottish Gaelic version of Øystein. Mikenorton (talk) 06:47, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Some names related to those have produced surnames in northern England; Osgill may be from a cognate of Eskild, for example. Sweyn is in historic use. Ulf may of course be translated Wolf. —Tamfang (talk) 07:02, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Bjorn simply means bear (but perhaps bairn could suffice?). Frodi is Frodo, apparently, Eggert is Egbert, Birger = Burgher (but wouldn't be used as a name). Steewi (talk) 00:01, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Bairn in English and Scots is closely related to the Swedish word barn meaning child/children - which presumably itself has a close cognate in Old Norse. 'Bear' is known and used as a male first name in English, although it's rare. On a related note, Sven is cognate with the English common noun swain. AlexTiefling (talk) 22:37, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

"You" in Punjabi?

I heard that Punjabi has T-V distinction with tū̃ and tusī̃. How would you write these two words in the standard writing system of Punjabi? Are they among these?

1. ਤੁਸੀ
2. ਤੁਸੀਂ
3. ਤੂੰ
4. ਤੈਂ

--Sonjaaa (talk) 18:45, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

See b:en:Punjabi/Backup. -- Wavelength (talk) 19:13, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

I don't see an answer in there...? --Sonjaaa (talk) 20:04, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

See the pronoun section on the page. The plural you (ਤੁਸੀਂ) is used to indicate respect. See also this book. Abecedare (talk) 20:13, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

At the right-hand side of the page, there is a table of contents. If you click on sub-subsection 7.2.1 ਪੁਰਖਵਾਚਕ ਪੜਨਾਂਵ (Personal pronoun), you can find the "Table of declensions of personal pronouns". In the row "subjective case" and under "second person", you can find the singular form ਤੂੰ and the plural form ਤੁਸੀਂ. I understand that the T-V distinction in languages involves formal and informal usage, which are not made explicit in the Wikibooks page, but it might be assumed that the singular form corresponds to informal usage and the plural form corresponds to formal usage.

-- Wavelength (talk) 20:26, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Category:Wikipedians by language has a link to Category:User pa. -- Wavelength (talk) 14:07, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

The Backup page has been shifted to other appropriate places. Information on pronouns has been shifted to [[1]]. Please, however, note that this wikibook is for beginners and may not serve the purpose Sonjaaa is looking for. -- 117.96.147.149 (talk) 08:24, 7 September 2009 (UTC)