Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2009 May 31

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May 31

Inanimate Libra

All zodiacal signs except Libra relate to animals. "zodiac" means circle of animals. Why is Libra the exception? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.227.88.34 (talk) 09:20, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

'Zodiac' means 'circle of life', not 'animals'. I can only assume that the 'scales' of Libra would represent 'balance' in life. --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 13:54, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Technically, ancient Greek Zodiakos ζωδιακος meant "of living things" or "containing living things" (in a literal etymological sense), and was used as a kind of abbreviation for the phrase κυκλος ζωδιακος when referring to constellations. However, many words derived from the the Greek zo- root had a fixed meaning of referring to animals (as in Zoology, etc.). AnonMoos (talk) 06:21, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

I stand corrected and the article also says more or less the same thing, plus I can't find anything at all to support my original theory that it came from the Greek ζᾤη ζωή (zoë) meaning 'life'. --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 15:25, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Compliments, you made three mistakes in a three letter word! The accent is not in that position, no aspiration inside a word, no iota subscript! :-) --139.18.116.55 (talk) 18:45, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Well, when I mess up, I like to mess up in style! Anyway, thanks, and duly corrected. (Actually, I didn't have my glasses on and just made the feminine form from ζῶον from what symbols I could 'see'. --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 19:22, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

It does ultimately come from the same root as "life", but various derivatives from the root had changed meaning within the Greek language from "living thing" to "animal"... AnonMoos (talk) 16:10, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

According to the article on Libra (constellation), Libra has often been viewed as an appendix of one of its neighbouring constellations. More recently, Libra is sometimes considered to signify the scales of justice held by Virgo, when Virgo is shown as Astraea, the goddess of justice. Yet in ancient times the constellation used to be animate, symbolizing the chelae of its other neighbouring constellation, Scorpio. The article's section also mentions the visual similarity between a scorpion's claws and a weighing scale, even stating that the words zubānā in Arabic and zibanitu in Akkadian both can mean both. ---Sluzzelin talk 14:06, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Which are the animals related to Gemini and Virgo? Flamarande (talk) 15:34, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Humans? Isn't Gemini something about Twins and Virgo a girl (the article suggest virgin which makes sense too), at least that's my understanding. I know we don't tend to categorise ourselves as animals but beyond Libra they do appear to be 'animals'. ny156uk (talk)

(Edit Conflict) Virgo, "the Maiden", has a human form, and humans are animals. She may also represent a goddess of fertility in general and cereal crops in particular - her brightest star is Spica, "spike or ear of corn" (in the European sense of corn being barley, wheat or similar plants) - but a humanoid goddess is still close enough to the general concept.

Gemini comprises a pair of human-ish male twins (Castor and Pollux). I say "-ish" because they were fathered on a human woman (Leda) by a male god (Zeus) who had taken the form of a swan, were hatched from a double-yolked egg Leda laid, and one is mortal while the other is immortal - all still falling into the animal category.

It's unwise to expect complete consistency and logic in astronomical myths, because they combine elements from several different traditions (just as overall Romano-Greek mythology amalgamates many different local traditions, some contradictory). 87.81.230.195 (talk) 17:55, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Elephantry

Infantry, cavalry, artillery, chariotry: what are the elephants called? SpinningSpark 20:09, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Apparently you are correct. --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 23:53, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

And another thing . . .

. . . what do you call these kinds of nouns? They are not really collective nouns, those would be a company of infantry, a squadron of cavalry, a battery of artillery etc. SpinningSpark 20:26, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

I would say they are just nouns. I don't think there is a grammatical term for these. --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 23:56, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

The human equivalent of "terms of venery"? AnonMoos (talk) 06:10, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

I agree that there is no particular term, but it is clear that they do form a group and that '-ry' as a suffix has had a certain productivity. Another such example is '-age' to mean something like 'a quantity of'. I was amused a few years back when I heard one of the set-builders in a theatre I do some work at refer to 'rostrumage', by which he meant the quantity of rostra (that we had, or that a production needed). The meaning was immediately clear, but I hadn't heard it before. --ColinFine (talk) 07:51, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

German memorial translation

I need a translation of this memorial I photographed in the Garrison Cemetery in Gdańsk. It was probably built for the sailors of the SMS Magdeburg. Mieciu K (talk) 20:24, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

"Hier ruhen vierzehn deutsche Helden vom Kreuzer Magdeburg. Sie starben im Weltkriege 1914 für ihr Vaterland"

"Here rest fourteen German heroes from the cruiser Magdeburg. They died for their fatherland in the World War 1914"

[...list of fallen; doesn't require translation...]

"Mit ihnen zusammen starben" [two more names] "vom Torpedoboot V26 den Heldentod"

"Along with them," [two more names] "from the torpedo boat V26 died a heroic death." (The V26 seems to have been a Großtorpedoboot) ---Sluzzelin talk 20:53, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, can someone also write the names and dates? I'm having trouble reading blackletter (these photos should help [1] [2]). Mieciu K (talk) 21:29, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

My blackletter reading skills are not the best, but I'll try. From top to bottom:

• Kaspar Boisen- 10/12/1888
• Fritz Bürger - 17/9/1886
• Paul Fröhlich - 12/10/1892
• Paul Hoyer - 25/8/1891
• Paul Jänner - 24/11/1894
• Paul Köhler - 3/8/1890
• Johann Kultzen - 26/1/1890
• Hermann Cühr - 31/3/1890
• Heinrich Hockenberger - 31/7/1891
• Gustav Schmidt - 30/9/1893
• Friedrich Sudhans 1/1/1892
• Albert Wack - 24/8/1895
• Michael Magner - 24/3/1891
• Emil Wedel - 21/9/1890

Men on the torpedo boat V26:

• Dr. Gerhard Walkenbur - 28/7/1887 (name too squished)
• Karl Lehmann - 21/7/1886 Xenon54 (talk) 22:36, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

For the lazy, there is a website, [3] I have changed names according to the transcription on the website, but have not checked those against the photos.--Radh (talk) 23:48, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

The 3rd name is Fröhlich with an "h" and the 2nd last name of the SMS Magdeburg should be Michael Wagner. I read the 1st name on the V26 as Wolfenbur, but it is hard to decypher. Maybe his name was "Wolfenburg" (wolve´s castle) which is a quite common surname, and the stone mason may have misjudged the space required. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 09:01, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Our SMS Magdeburg article mentions that 15 sailors died on the Magdeburg yet this memorial only mentions 14 bodies. Does anybody know what happened to the 15th body? Was it buried somwhere else or never found? I'm asking here since most detailed internet sources about SMS Magdeburg will probably be in English. Mieciu K 153.19.11.235 (talk) 14:09, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Are there that many? I could not find that much.--Radh (talk) 15:24, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

"Here rest fourteen German heroes..." 87.206.221.156 (talk) 22:35, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

I notice that the vier in the first line (the 'four' in 'fourteen') is a replacement. —Tamfang (talk) 06:33, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

But the monument still lists 14 names (16 including the sailors from V26) Maybe or the monument has been dameged or was vandalised during or after WWII, and that part of the monument was repaired? Maybe mr 15 was from a rich or noble family (an officer?) and was buried in a separate / family tomb? 153.19.11.235 (talk) 10:37, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

My guess is that the first line was carved (with dreizehn or fünfzehn) before the list of names was available, and then had to be corrected. —Tamfang (talk) 02:35, 11 June 2009 (UTC)