Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2009 November 30

Welcome to the Wikipedia Language Reference Desk Archives
The page you are currently viewing is an archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the current reference desk pages.

November 30

Word for ancient military

What would be a big long English word representing ancient military, like from ancient Rome or ancient Greece? In a sentence it would be something like: The combined fighing forces in the ancient battle of xxxxxxxxxxxxxx infantry was over 100,000 combined.--64.138.237.101 (talk) 00:37, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Are you referring to the Peloponnesian War? Or am I missing the point? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:46, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Yes, the sentence is more than a bit ambiguous, if you ask me. If the name of a specific military unit is what you're after, some of the following categories may be useful: Category:Ancient Greek infantry divisions, Category:Military units and formations of ancient Greece, Category:Infantry units and formations of ancient Rome. decltype (talk) 00:51, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the lists of ancient Greek military units. I like Thureophoroi and Chalkaspides. Do you have the etymology on these words and periphery?--64.138.237.101 (talk) 12:35, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

The articles tell you. Thureophoroi are "thureos-carriers" and chalkaspides are "bronze shields". Adam Bishop (talk) 14:54, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

If you like big words for these sort of things, check out Pentakosiomedimnoi. --Dweller (talk) 13:42, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

'Cream' in coffee

Do Americans really habitually put cream in their coffee, despite its unhealthyness (see saturated fat article), or by "cream" do they actually mean milk? 78.146.171.75 (talk) 12:38, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

As if coffee itself were actually healthy! Coffee gives a caffeine kick, but it's also bitter-tasting, so a dairy creamer (such as Half-and-half) is often used (or a Non-dairy creamer) and/or some sugar. I like espresso with a couple of lumps but no creamer. I don't think "pure" cream is used all that often. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:53, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

There are certainly Americans who refer to any white liquid they put in their coffee as "cream" regardless of whether it's actual cream, half-and-half, milk, or non-dairy creamer. This imprecision can be a great grief to people who receive something of lesser value when they ask for cream. +Angr 13:33, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

What makes cream "unhealthy"? 99.166.95.142 (talk) 16:47, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Food guide pyramid#Dairy group, Dairy product#Health risks of consuming dairy products. Wavelength (talk) 17:06, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Bovine Growth Hormone (rBGH) in milk threathens our health. -- Wavelength (talk) 18:10, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

You'll find a lot of people don't put a lot of stock in the industry and government-sponsored "food pyramid". Cream is perfectly healthy and lower in sugar, which means it's healthier than low-fat milk if you're diabetic. Paul Davidson (talk) 02:10, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Not all "creams" are dairy products. (http://www.onelook.com/?w=cream&ls=a) -- Wavelength (talk) 17:23, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Commercially prepared (no hyphen) creamers contain many ingredients. (What's In Your Coffee Creamer?)

-- Wavelength (talk) 17:48, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

When I first went to the States (1998) I remember asking for coffee white, and it causing some consternation. I thought it was due to the fact that any reference to colour, as it does here, causes problems but now I wonder if it was due to the more common cultural usage of creamer. Any help out there?--91.125.206.228 (talk) 18:26, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

"White" for coffee is just not a common idiom in the US, even though "black" is. "With cream/milk" or "Would you like/do you take cream/milk" are common ways to refer to it. "Cream" can often mean milk or non-dairy creamer in old-fashioned settings where there is a default creamer. At Starbucks etc. you refer precisely to what you want, whether nonfat milk, whole milk, 2% milk, or soy milk. --JWB (talk) 18:59, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

What, exactly, is "half-and-half"? I know the halves refer to milk and "cream", but is that cream actual fresh cream? That is, is half-and-half a blend of actual milk and actual cream, or just a descriptor for, say, thickened milk or diluted cream? --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 23:34, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

See Half-and-half#Dairy product or ask Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Mixed dairy products. — Sebastian 23:44, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Actual cream is certainly traditional (and there's nothing unhealthy about it). It significantly adds to the richness and smoothness of the coffee. However, many people might add regular milk or commercial creamer instead and still call it cream. Paul Davidson (talk) 02:08, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

There's a lot of rot talked about whether certain foods are "healthy" or "unhealthy". You can't just say that any particular food is either one or the other, without taking into account the context in which, and the quantity of which, it is eaten, and the particular metabolic and allergenic circumstances of the eater. Eating 5 kilos of "healthy" broccoli at a single sitting would do you no good at all. Eating small quantities of "unhealthy" cream or chocolate would do most people no harm. Eating even minuscule quantities of "nutritious" peanuts could kill a peanut-intolerant person. -- JackofOz (talk) 20:09, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Well, it could kill a peanut-allergic person. I doubt it would kill a peanut-intolerant person, although it looks like anaphylaxis is an rare symptom of intolerance. </life-saving pedantry> 86.166.148.95 (talk) 20:41, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Appointment

What's the word for when someone in power picks a family member for an appointed position? I know there's a word for it, but I can't remember what it is. 74.111.69.72 (talk) 16:35, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Nepotism. Nanonic (talk) 16:38, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

A line from Allan Sherman's version of "When I Was a Lad": "So I thank old Yale / And I thank the Lord / And I also thank my father / Who is chairman of the board..." ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:06, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Or Cronyism. You'll find you get a lot of references to 'cronies' when reading political commentary. 194.221.133.226 (talk) 11:10, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

The difference is that nepotism means specifically appointing family members, whereas cronyism means appointing people close to you, no matter if they are family or not. TomorrowTime (talk) 10:18, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Foal-boat split?

On our Help:IPA for English, it says:

oʊ boat, code, foal, bone, go

And I see plenty of other reputable-looking resources on English vowels that say this, so it seems pretty standard.

For me, the vowel in foal, pole, poll, troll, mole is not the vowel in boat, code, bone, go, show. I'm not just being thrown by the l, since I can say foal with the vowel in boat: it just sounds weird. Equally, I can say boat with the vowel from foal, and it sounds weird. I think the vowel in foal is further back?

I'd quite like to read something about this, or at least where it occurs both in terms of accents and in terms of context. I'm not having any luck with Google, but then you might not have luck finding the foot-strut split if you didn't know those were the poster words. Does anyone know of what I speak? 86.166.148.95 (talk) 23:21, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

This sounds like a coarticulation issue to me. Because the first set of words end in dark L, the /o/ gets pulled back, as you suggested. (Although it should also be noted that dark L itself is vowel-like, so some of the different sound you hear could actually be the l rather than the o.) But the difference is not phonemic--that is to say, non-trained native speakers consider it the same sound, just as they consider the [t] in stop and the [t^h] in top to be the same sound. rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 23:24, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Hmm, the OP is presumably a non-trained native speaker, and obviously considers it a different sound. A better way to explain non-phonemic, short of linking to the artice, may be to say: There are no two words which only differ in the pronunciation of /oʊ/. — Sebastian 23:39, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

I can't detect any difference in how I pronounce the diphthong in all those words. Paul Davidson (talk) 02:12, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

I can. I know exactly what the OP means, although I can't explain it; it seems like foal, pole, etc, don't have diphthongs, although I don't know if that's the real reason. Adam Bishop (talk) 02:51, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

In the American south, at least, I can imagine them saying "foh-wul, poh-wul, etc." but I think they would say boat, code, etc., without the two-syllable effect. And I think the editors above are right, that the "L" is what's doing it, like it was "UL". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 06:05, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

The OP's IP address implies he's from the UK, and I know that there are varieties of English English, particularly in and around London, where the GOAT vowel is very different before /l/ in the same syllable, so that mole and moat have different vowels. There can even be a few minimal pairs, though, because the mole variety is heard also when a suffix has been added, so that wholly and holey (i.e. full of holes) have the vowel of mole, while holy has the vowel of moat. John C. Wells has blogged about this here. See also English-language vowel changes before historic l#Wholly-holy split. +Angr 06:58, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

I don't know anything either, but the "co" in "code" and that in "cold" are different to me, as are the "mo" in "mowed" and "mo[u]ld", the "so" in "sowed" and "sold", and the "go" in "goad" and "gold". —— Shakescene (talk) 12:35, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

I speak RP (give or take) and I think the main difference between the vowels that I use for 'foal' and 'boat' is that the vowel is 'foal' is slightly longer (probably not sufficiently longer to justify one of those colon-like things in the IPA, but noticeably longer). However, that could be the 'l' tricking me by being vowel-like. I don't pronounce the 'oa' as a diphthong, but I could interpret 'foal' as having a diphthong of the 'oa' vowel and a schwa from the 'l'. --Tango (talk) 12:48, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

If you don't pronounce the 'oa' in foal as a diphthong, you can't be speaking RP (and vice versa). It can be a monophthong in GA, and it certainly is in Scottish, but in pure RP, it's əʊ in both 'foal' and 'boat'. In the widespread Londoner pronunciation that the OP probably had in mind, 'foal' will differ from 'boat' and be something like ɔʊ (not sure about the exact value) - but it's still a diphthong. --91.148.159.4 (talk) 20:22, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

I did say "give or take". It is important to distinguish between RP as I learnt it organically and RP as it is taught in elocution lessons - they are quite different. --Tango (talk) 20:32, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks guys, this is really helpful! The information so far seems to fit, since I couldn't think of an example of the foal vowel that didn't finish on an l. Good call on the wholly-holy, Angr. :-) I'm off to read the links. And yes, RP (give or take). 86.166.148.95 (talk) 16:54, 1 December 2009 (UTC)