Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2010 August 26

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August 26

I'm all right, Jack

I know what "I'm all right, Jack" means, but I wonder why this sentence comes to have such a meaning.--Analphil (talk) 09:09, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Here's one theory:[1] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 10:25, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

I've already read it, but am not sure whether it is reliable. Is it? --Analphil (talk) 10:28, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

According to the Oxford English Dictionary, it comes from "jack" as slang for a sailor. They first record it in use in 1919, although a 1910 source records it as "Damn you Jack - I'm all right!" - see [2]. This suggests that the Urban Dictionary definition is substiantially correct. Warofdreams talk 11:11, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. --Analphil (talk) 15:34, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Creole Languages

Is there a language that is a creole of modern English where an American could understand the majority of what a speaker is saying? For example I would consider Jamaican Creole too different to really understand but I have seen a Dutch speaker communicate fairly well with an Afrikaans speaker. So what would be an English equivalent? TheFutureAwaits (talk) 11:44, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Not meant to be an answer: We have an article on English-based creole languages, which you may find of interest. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 14:41, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

If it were easily comprehensible, then it would presumably be a "Mesolect" rather than full creole as such. On the opposite extreme, the Ndyuka languages are historically English-based, but basically completely incomprehensible to speakers of ordinary English dialects... AnonMoos (talk) 18:32, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

English speakers can usually understand creole acrolects, but the basilects will be beyond their ken. This is certainly the case for me and Jamaican Creole. Steewi (talk) 02:33, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

I would not classify Afrikaans as a Creole: its grammar is basically that of Dutch, though with significant differences in detail. --ColinFine (talk) 13:46, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

If you're looking for a language analogous to Afrikaans, there is the Scots language. —Internoob (Talk · Cont · Wikt) 20:26, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Vol-au-vent

What would be the IPA rendition of "vol-au-vent"? Our article says it's pronounced as "voll-a-vom", but I personally wouldn't put an "m" sound at the end. Rojomoke (talk) 12:36, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

In French it's [vɔlovɑ̃].—Emil J. 12:44, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

The incorrect "voll-a-vom" pronounciation was added to the article yesterday by an IP contributor. I have replaced it with Emil's IPA pronounciation. Gandalf61 (talk) 13:16, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Is it common for people to learn to read IPA before they learn to pronounce vol-au-vent? The IPA text links to the page "IPA for French", a page which doesn't explain how to pronounce the crucial final vowel. Anybody who doesn't know IPA will be forced to flick back and forth between the article and the chart three times, ending in disappointment, which seems a sadistic thing to do to the readers when we could just explain the pronunciation using human language instead of IPA. 81.131.26.162 (talk) 22:52, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

(ec) IPA is the standard transcription system both internationally and on Wikipedia. If you are dissatisfied with that, see the numerous discussions that have been held at Wikipedia talk:IPA, such as this and others. If you can suggest another transcription system for this particular article that is actually accurate and helpful to readers (i.e., not something ad hoc that only makes sense to you), feel free to do so at Talk:Vol-au-vent. rʨanaɢ (talk) 22:59, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

on IPA being the standard transcription system internationally. It is not. It is the standard only among linguists. The actual standard internationally is the dictionary soundalike standard. Comet Tuttle (talk) 18:33, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

What about "tart" ;-) Alansplodge (talk) 22:54, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Every article on Wikipedia is ad hoc, that's the nature of explanations, you can't mechanize them. (Except the articles which are automatically-generated lists, I suppose.) I'm fond of cypher codes, and habitually write notes in my own set of glyphs, but I can't see why we should set the IPA cypher code as an obstacle between the casual reader who is interested in little pastries and the information about the (approximate) pronunciation. By all means have the IPA as well as the transliterated version for normal people. 81.131.26.162 (talk) 23:32, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

This reference desk is not the correct venue to argue about encyclopedia-wide editing standards. If you dislike the way IPA is used in the project you can move the discussion to Wikipedia talk:IPA. And by the way, the IPA is not a cipher. rʨanaɢ (talk) 00:36, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

If the reader is an English speaker who does not know IPA and doesn't know how to pronounce French words, you are not going to be able to represent to them how this is pronounced in French using the conventions of written English. Instead, you should be trying to include an audio file, since that will actually be useful. 86.161.108.172 (talk) 23:45, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Is "dwarven" a proper adjective to use to describe someone with dwarfism?

Is dwarven a proper adjective to use to describe someone with dwarfism? The Hero of This Nation (talk) 16:02, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

No, the adjective is "dwarfish", and even that sounds archaic and mildly offensive nowadays. The dwarv- stem, as in dwarven, dwarvish, and dwarves, was invented by J.R.R. Tolkien, and is confined to works of fantasy. LANTZY^TALK 16:11, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

The Oxford English Dictionary has only dwarfed, dwarfish and dwarfy, but Wiktionary includes dwarven, without citations as yet. If usage was restricted to Tolkien's works, then Wiktionary would not include the word, so it must have spread to the language, but I would use it with great care because it will mark you as a Tolkien fanatic. I can find usage only in gaming derived from Tolkien's works, so I agree that it isn't a "proper" word in the language. Dbfirs 16:18, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Wait, so the plural of dwarf should be dwarfs? That seems unlikely. And "dwarfy" is a splendid word. Exploding Boy (talk) 16:31, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Yup, the correct plural of dwarf is dwarfs. Tolkien and Walt Disney confused things a bit between them, but it's still correct. Karenjc 16:34, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

The usage Tolkien popularized (but did not invent: the OED has a cite for "dwarves" from 1818) is now fairly standard to describe mythological or fantastic creatures related to Norse dwarves. "Dwarfs" is still standard for abnormally small plants, animals and humans. Algebraist 16:41, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

If memory serves from one Tolkien biography, his publisher sent back a manuscript with every single "dwarves" (etc.) changed to "dwarfs" (etc.), and Tolkien laboriously corrected them all back. Comet Tuttle (talk) 18:54, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

That must have been fun, in the days before word processors. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:00, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

"Dwarfs" just sounds wrong: it should be a verb! Exploding Boy (talk) 19:04, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

My old Webster's has "dwarf, plural dwarfs, also dwarves." In contrast, "elf, plural elves." In further contrast, "leafs, plural leaves, also leafs" (as in Toronto Maple Leafs). English is an endless source of wonderment and entertainment. :) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:07, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Toronto Maple "Leafs" is another thing that's just wrong. Exploding Boy (talk) 19:09, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

"Toronto Maple Leafs" is actually an example of bahuvrihi or exocentric pluralization, a phenomenon which has been studied by linguists... AnonMoos (talk) 05:41, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

You're thinking of "leafs" as being an action verb rather than a noun, and you might be onto something, as the Leafs haven't had any action since about 1967. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:22, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

What's wrong with "with dwarfism"? rʨanaɢ (talk) 19:10, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

"Dwarfism" is a noun and "dwarven" sounds like it would be an adjective, if there were such a word (which there isn't, according to my Webster's). It lists "dwarfish" (adjective), "dwarfishly" (adverb), "dwarfishness" (noun), "dwarflike" (adjective), "dwarfness" (noun), and "dwarfism" (noun), along with "dwarf" itself being noun, verb and adjective. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:20, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Italian word

In The Opera, Kramer is trying to persuade Jerry that his presence is required at a social gathering: "You're the straw that stirs the drink; you're the magliana!" I couldn't find this word in any Italian dictionary, so I conjectured that it was a corruption of magliaia, "knitter", which would make sense in this context. But it may be that my dictionary is inadequate, or that magliana is colloquial or dialectical. Does anyone know? LANTZY^TALK 16:06, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Does either Magliana or Banda della Magliana help? AndrewWTaylor (talk) 16:20, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Well, it:Magliana contains a brief etymological aside relating the toponym to maglie, but only in vague terms. However, I get the feeling from this that magliana is not a (standard) Italian common noun. LANTZY^TALK 00:21, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

If you look at e.g. Kramer's Spanish, then you wouldn't really expect correct language use from him. Rimush (talk) 19:21, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, but I figured it was at least an allusion to an actual word. You're probably right, though. This may be a case of linguistic pareidolia on my part. LANTZY^TALK 00:21, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Why do dwarves have Scottish accents?

From whence arose the convention of having fantasy dwarves speak in Scottish accents? It was around before Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings films, for example the Baldur's Gate games have Scottish-sounding dwarves. The Hero of This Nation (talk) 16:41, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

I don't have a citation for this, but I suspect it's related to the "Scottish engineer" stereotype. Scotland has produced a number of clever and famous engineers (hence Scotty's development as such). I imagine if a film director or game designer is looking for a quick way to distinguish dwarves from other races in dialogue and action, and a weird or eldritch accent is the easiest way to do that, then a Scottish accent directly invokes dwarves' propensity to hang out in mines and forges, building and hammering things together. As a half-ass genealogy / "just so" story, this is not too shabby, but not easily confirmed. But I don't have any better ideas. ☯.ZenSwashbuckler.☠ 16:57, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

This is not to say that a Scottish accent is per se weird or eldritch; but like every other non-RP, non-GA accent, it (and its speakers) are often portrayed as bizarre, exotic, or vaguely magical. ☯.ZenSwashbuckler.☠ 17:03, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

I always thought the LotR dwarves had Irish accents. HiLo48 (talk) 17:05, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

That would suggest Leprechauns, perhaps? (Shrek, who is no dwarf has a Scottish accent). As far as the Scottish and Irish accents being "bizarre", etc., a lot of us love the sound of those accents (although having some Scots-Irish blood in us probably biases us). ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:13, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

The mythological idea of a dwarf is (if I remember correctly) actually based in the idea of miners - professional miners from ancient times were often hunched highly muscular (what happens if you spend 20 years digging ore out of a hillside with a pick and shovel), and were often considered somewhat 'magical' by outsiders for the same reasons that blacksmiths were. the largest mining areas in Britain, historically, were in the west and north (Cumbria was a major mining center), and so the guttural, semi-Scottish accent was probably associated with dwarves because actual miners spoke that way. that's a bit ORish, mind you, but I think it has some truth in it. --Ludwigs2 18:05, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

That sounds right, and of course Disney's seven dwarfs were diamond miners. However, they pretty much spoke like Americans (or at least sang like Americans). ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:59, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Though in the original unbastardized version(s) they would presumably have had Germanic accents. 87.82.229.195 (talk) 10:47, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

This gets us into the notion of the little dumpy grey-blue men often reported (along with the tall slanty-eyed varieties) in stories of alien visitation; and the European Kobold or goblin - hence the word cobalt for the grey-blue metal said to be mined by these folk. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 19:26, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Many dwarves (including the LOTR subspecies) are known for their miserly ways. That ties in with the Scottish stereotype. Clarityfiend (talk) 21:43, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Selection of accents doesn't have a lot of logic in the otherwise spot-on LOR films. The Hobbits of the Shire are all supposed to have grown up in the same isolated community, yet one speaks RP with a hint of USA, two have a sort of West Country burr and one is Scottish. As for traditional mining areas of the UK; North and South Wales, Cornwall, Notts/Derby/Yorks and the North East of England all have as good a claim. My great-grandfather was a Scottish miner; he died well before I was born but I suspect he spoke inpenetrable Glaswegian like the rest of his family. Alansplodge (talk) 21:47, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

They should all be speaking Brummie, really, what with the Shire being based substantially on Moseley and Edgbaston. 81.131.26.162 (talk) 23:22, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

No, Frodo should be speaking like a bourgeois, Sam should be speaking like a peasant, Pippin should be speaking like an aristocrat, and Merry should be speaking like a semi-foreigner. Which isn't too far off what the films did. Algebraist 23:30, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Well, the films got it roughly right for Frodo and Sam (except that both of them sounded like Americans trying to sound British), but Pippin was the one who sounded like a semi-foreigner (from an English point of view, since he sounded Scottish), and Merry sounded like a generic Englishman. —Angr (talk) 13:48, 29 August 2010 (UTC)