Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2010 January 16

Welcome to the Wikipedia Language Reference Desk Archives
The page you are currently viewing is an archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the current reference desk pages.

January 16

Please explain this simile

Sir Henry Wooton's famous description of the fire at the Globe Theatre in 1613 contains the line: "...it kindled inwardly, and ran round like a train, consuming within less than an hour the whole house to the very ground." What does "train" refer to? There were no railway trains then, and wagon trains and the trains of dresses don't move quickly. 87.194.239.235 (talk) 00:12, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

"Train", as in the train of a dress, was used for the tail/trail of a comet or meteor, for example in Hamlet: As starres with traines of fier and dewes of blood, Disasters in the sunne.

But per the OED, at the time a "train" was also "a trap or snare for catching wild animals; also fig." (this sense from the French traïne "ruse") They give, from 1624, I seek my peace, but seek my peace in vain; For every way's a trap: each path's a train. And from 1697, Caught in the Train which thou thyself hast laid.

Another word spelled "train" (apparently from the Italian traina) is "A line of gunpowder or other combustible substance laid so as to convey fire to a mine or charge for the purpose of exploding it. Also fig." From 1548, The Frenchmen [...] made traynes of gunpouder from strete to strete, and from 1677, A Mine was made, and Train was laid hereby for blowing up the Gospel it self.

kwami (talk) 00:21, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Is this the original meaning of a "trained" animal, i.e. one that was captured? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:29, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

No, per the OED, as a verb that word "train" means to lure with bait, as in falconry. (But in figurative usage the two nouns "train" were often conflated, so perhaps the verbs were too?) The other "train" as a verb meant to drag > to lead > to train a vine or branch > to train an apprentice > to train an animal. kwami (talk) 00:40, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

So then, is the idea that a trap snaps shut quickly? Woogee (talk) 00:30, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Could be a snare that encircles. Or [edit conflict on additional defs] a trail of "fire" like that of a meteor, or like a burning line of gunpowder. The last would certainly convey the idea of speed, as would the second if it evoked the image of a meteor rather than of a comet. The first would convey the idea of entrapment—I don't know which was intended. Speed seems likely, but given the context, were people trapped inside as well?

And a "train" could also mean the gait or course of a horse, which could also work. kwami (talk) 00:40, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for your answers. I think that the gunpowder meaning is best, but the other possibilities are very interesting. 87.194.239.235 (talk) 12:49, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

No, it's a different meaning of "train" (although at the moment I'm too lazy to look it up in my OED). For example, "train" can also mean "following" or "retinue" in some contexts, and is still used to describe the end of a very long bridal veil (think of pages holding up Princess Di's) or coronation gown (ditto for her mother-in-law's in 1953). It's something (as in the comet's tail example above) that follows something else. —— Shakescene (talk) 22:31, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Dutch help

Can I get a translation of the description for this image? Thanks. bibliomaniac15 03:54, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Javaanse jongen, Gangsar, poseert met een leguaan van 1 meter 77 hoog en een gewicht van twaalf kilogram, Ngandong

Javanese boy, Gangsar, posing with an iguana [sic] 1 meter 77 long and weighing twelve kilograms, Ngandong

kwami (talk) 05:13, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks very much. I've added it to Commons. bibliomaniac15 06:27, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Why the "[sic]" after "iguana"? Don't you believe it is an iguana? +Angr 16:40, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

It's pretty big. It could be a monitor lizard. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:42, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Iguanas live in the Americas and the Caribbean, not in Java. Also, it doesn't have the frilly head. --Kjoonlee 01:46, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

The description of the water monitor on Wikipedia seems to fit very well with the description of the lizard in the photo. Even if it's not a water monitor, it could very well be a monitor lizard, I guess. --Kjoonlee 02:11, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

I assume Bibliomaniac had no problem with "1 meter 77", but we don't say that with metric units in English where I come from, even though we do say "1 foot 7" for 1 foot + 7 inches = 19 inches. So to complete the translation to English: here the meaning is obviously 1 m + 77 cm, which is 1.77 m. --Anonymous, 19:27 UTC, January 16, 2010.

hoog doesn't mean 'high'? —Tamfang (talk) 17:22, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

My guess is that it also means "tall", and that it can apply to the length of animals as well. The basis for that guess is that the Swedish language uses "lång" (which means "long") to describe "tallness" as well. --Kjoonlee 12:15, 21 January 2010 (UTC)